The Genius of D&D

[mmadsen]

Dungeons

On Dungeons, Monte says:

I've already gone on at length on this topic in the sidebar on page 106 of the DMG. Let me just add to that by saying that not only are dungeons excellent learning tools for new DMs and players, but they're just lots of fun. Dungeon-style adventuring is escapist, simple and often lighthearted.

I think we can all agree that dungeon-style adventuring is simple, lighthearted fun.

If I look back on my own early D&D days though, I can see that inexperienced DMs need help making the transition from mindless dungeons (a room full of Orcs, followed by a room full of Gnolls, followed by a room full of Bugbears) to sensible adventures.

Also, it's a shame that the rules clearly expect dungeon adventuring. Wizards are balanced for dungeon adventures. Their spell lists are almost all combat spells, and the limitations of their magic (N spells per day) really aren't very limiting at all -- except in a dungeon.

 

[Tarin Greenflame]

Well, with the coup de gras rule, you can actually make hostage situations and such actually threatening, even at higher levels. Just say that in the cornered by crossbowmen case, all of their hits will be CDGs, and the player will be flat footed since all of the crossbowmen have refocused or readied their actions while the negociations went on or whatever. In another case, a person with a d4 knife to the throat will automatically CDG the PC/NPC being held, maybe with multiple attacks.

But yes, HPs are a little abstract, but even if you lose hp just from dodging and getting scraped, your body will very likely be fatigued, tired, and bruised/scratched up and it may take a few days to fully recover. After a days rest, the PC's body may be sore/cramped from the previous day's fighting, and their mind stressed out. Try doing something like paintballing or training/sparring in martial arts in 80-100 degree weather for a few hours and see how ready you are the next day to do it.

 

[mmadsen]

Coup de Grace

The Coup de Grace rules are clearly an example of Point A "institut[ing] rules that sidestep Hit Points to keep these attacks lethal".

(By the way, I'm not sure why it's so common to call it a "Coup de Gras" or to pronounce it that way, leaving off the "s" sound at the end, but that would make it a "Fat Blow" or "Strike of Fat" rather than a "Mercy Blow" or "Strike of Grace".)

 

[Corinth]

You say that like it's a bad thing. It's not.

 

[Corinth]

Re: Dungeons

I think we can all agree that dungeon-style adventuring is simple, lighthearted fun.

If I look back on my own early D&D days though, I can see that inexperienced DMs need help making the transition from mindless dungeons (a room full of Orcs, followed by a room full of Gnolls, followed by a room full of Bugbears) to sensible adventures.

Most gamers don't want more than this. That was one of Monte's points. They don't care about your grand epic pretensions; they want to kick in the door, kill the orc, loot the chest and look good doing it. Then their PCs level up and they do it again.

Also, it's a shame that the rules clearly expect dungeon adventuring. Wizards are balanced for dungeon adventures. Their spell lists are almost all combat spells, and the limitations of their magic (N spells per day) really aren't very limiting at all -- except in a dungeon.

Dungeons provide a clear focus for gameplay. This is what makes site-based adventuring so much easier to write, run and play than any other option. The trick to being a good GM is to know this and exploit the form for your own ends.

 

[mmadsen]

At higher levels, the dangers that PCs face increase in both quality and quantity. This means that PCs will take more damage, making those high HP scores drop like rocks damned fast, even after account for their defenses.

This brings up two points. First, higher Hit Points aren't the only way to address more attacks doing more damage. D&D characters could just as easily have even higher ACs than they currently do. What if we designed the game so that characters got an AC bonus (that stacks with armor) equal to BAB? They obviously wouldn't need as many Hit Points as before -- at least against attacks that require a to-hit roll.

The second point, one that I already brought up, is that D&D monsters increase the damage they do as we go up in level largely to keep up with increased PC Hit Points. If 10th-level PCs didn't have as many Hit Points, CR-10 creatures wouldn't be designed to do as much damage.

 

[Zappo]

Well, with the coup de gras rule, you can actually make hostage situations and such actually threatening, even at higher levels. Just say that in the cornered by crossbowmen case, all of their hits will be CDGs, and the player will be flat footed since all of the crossbowmen have refocused or readied their actions while the negociations went on or whatever. In another case, a person with a d4 knife to the throat will automatically CDG the PC/NPC being held, maybe with multiple attacks.

But you have to bend the rules quite a bit. You've got to be helpless to be CdG'ed, and IIRC it takes more than just being flatfooted or grappled. If a DM ruled that being grappled was enough for a CdG, after the first PC death or two, the players' combat style would change quite a bit.

 

[Hejdun]

We all know the pain of cornering a PC at sword point or surrounding him with crossbowmen only to either (a) institute rules that sidestep Hit Points to keep these attacks lethal, or (b) twist the rules/expectations of the game to make those crossbowmen Rogues with extra Sneak Attack damage, or (c) plead with the players to go along and pretend their characters are in fact threatened.

Or hidden option (d), let them win the fight.

I mean, mid to high level PCs are SUPPOSED to be powerful. They are SUPPOSED to be able to dodge the blows and take the hits. I mean, they are the cream of the crop. How fun would it have been if Gandalf accidently got speared 2 days into the journey by a wandering orc? Not very. It's like saying to a player "Ok, well, the crossbow bolt from Farmer Joe kills you. I don't care if you have 645 hit points, it kills you. No, no save. You die. Period."

Mid to higher level PCs shouldn't fear some level 1 warriors with crossbows. They have no reason to. That's not metagaming, that's knowing that you can kick their pitiful asses anyday of the week, and twice on Tuesday. There are other things for you to intimidate teh PCs with.

 

[Victim]

Against roughly equivalent threats, or the occasional odd monster that's all offense like the accursed Girallons, HPs can drop quite rapidly. Fully buffed characters around 10th level are going to be throwing out high teens damage at a minimum. Throw in Haste, secondary and maybe tertiary attacks and you're talking about 40 - 50 damage per round of attacks. That's 2 - 5 rounds of fighting against another high HP, moderate defense character. Adding in spells and coordinated attacks and HP plummet so fast you'd think they're in free fall. When a hasted wizard drops a pair of 10 dice lightning bolts on you while you and his fighter lackey beat on each other, you'll wonder where those 100 HP went so quickly.

High level characters are powerful beyond anyone in our world. In many action movies, instead of surrendering when confronted by goons with guns, the heroes dive for cover while drawing a pistol and returning fire. High level characters are like action movie heroes, and really high level ones are like super heroes. Ordinary goons with X bows that threaten high level characters are just going to show everyone the amazing skills of the heroes.

EDIT: Stop writing new things while I type!

If you increase ACs and reduce HP, all the spells need to be changed. Something like true strike would be hideous. Also, there's no progress in missing all the time. It's not very fun to miss 10 times in a row and then drop the guy on a lucky hit. When you cause damage, even if it's just wearing the enemy down, you're actually accomplishing something. Finally, lucky shots would have a much greater impact, so the game is more random. Characters would have a greater chance to drop before doing anything.

 

[Game Control]

My on and off D&D campaign has reached level 13. The PCs have so much HP, not to mention an high AC, that I couldn't seriously threaten them with a dozen town guard aiming crossbow at them. So I don't.

During the last adventure, they tried to storm a salamander citadel. They all had protection against fire cast on them. Despite this, within a few rounds of conflict one PC was dead and the others were running away and screaming like little girls. Most had less than 20 HP left.

As D&D PCs gain levels, you should just drop the more mundane threats altogether instead of struggling with houserules to make a foot soldier dangerous. Just move on to more appropriate foes and you'll see that Heroes still get killed quickly if they aren't careful.