The Genius of D&D

[The Sigil]

Quick-hit

As D&D PCs gain levels, you should just drop the more mundane threats altogether instead of struggling with houserules to make a foot soldier dangerous. Just move on to more appropriate foes and you'll see that Heroes still get killed quickly if they aren't careful.

Amen, brother.

Besides, what is the fun of role-playing for 4 years to get your character to legendary level (say, 15th-20th) and still worrying about the fact that some dumb kid guardsman who's been on the job a couple of hours might fire a stray arrow and accidentally kill you?

When you've put in your dues slaying monsters and kicking butt for months or years (real time), it's very annoying to have to worry that Joe Guard is gonna kick your butt.

And BTW, if you want threats that don't have to worry about scaling with level, just attack your PCs with stuff that does ability score damage (poison and disease come to mind). The 1st-level PC with a 15 Con and 8 hp has a better chance at survival than the 20th-level PC with a 10 Con and 200 hp. Is that what you want?

--The Sigil

 

[mmadsen]

If you increase ACs and reduce HP, all the spells need to be changed. Something like true strike would be hideous.

Absolutely, things would have to change. The game, as written, is balanced for high-level characters with very high Hit Points.

For instance, True Strike isn't very powerful -- it's just first level -- because automatically hitting doesn't do much; it isn't hard to hit in D&D, and hitting someone doesn't hurt them much. (Of course, if you tried to novelize your campaign, you'd be left with some strange things to explain. How does an arrow fly true without hurting the guy it hits?)

High-level spells do huge amounts of damage, because they're supposed to hurt high-level opponents. If high-level characters didn't have lots of Hit Points, the game wouldn't make high-level spells do that much damage.

Also, there's no progress in missing all the time. It's not very fun to miss 10 times in a row and then drop the guy on a lucky hit. When you cause damage, even if it's just wearing the enemy down, you're actually accomplishing something.

That's obviously taking things too far in the opposite direction. We can certainly find a happy medium where our heroes and their enemies take three or four hits to take down but they don't get hit every turn.

A system like that (higher AC, not quite as many Hit Points) could have Conan wade through just as many low-level grunts without actually facing zero risk from mundane attacks.

If you do want high-level characters to face zero risk from mundane weapons -- not just a low risk but effectively zero -- the current system works fine.

 

[mmadsen]

Re: Quick-hit

And BTW, if you want threats that don't have to worry about scaling with level, just attack your PCs with stuff that does ability score damage (poison and disease come to mind). The 1st-level PC with a 15 Con and 8 hp has a better chance at survival than the 20th-level PC with a 10 Con and 200 hp. Is that what you want?

I'd consider Ability Damage an example of how D&D knows Hit Points don't scale well (at least not in all situations), so it introduces a mechanic to get around them.

I'm not sure I see why an epic hero shouldn't be as immune to poison as he is to steel.

 

[Jordan]

Mid to higher level PCs shouldn't fear some level 1 warriors with crossbows. They have no reason to. That's not metagaming, that's knowing that you can kick their pitiful asses anyday of the week, and twice on Tuesday.

This is also a concept that's well grounded in fantasy storytelling. Picture Heklor Bloodaxe, legendary barbarian who's killed the Great Hydra of the Marshes and the Dragon Lord of the Thunderstrike Mountains staring down a half-dozen castle guards who likely have never seen combat outside of a practice room. Why should he be afraid of these people? He knows he could kill three of them before any of them could get a shot off, two of them are shaking so badly there's no way they'll hit him, and the one bolt that might strike home will bounce harmlessly off his dragonhide armor.

I don't understand DMs who think that high-level characters should still be threatened by low-level enemies. How much fun is that? If you can still get killed by a common, everyday guard, what's the point of leveling up? If high-level characters still have to cower in fear every time Joe Schmoe points a crossbow at them, where's the fun in that? As a DM, you have plenty of ways to challenge a character like Heklor Bloodaxe, but you're going to have to be a bit more imaginative than a half-dozen castle guards to do it.

 

[CWD]

Re: Re: Quick-hit

I'd consider Ability Damage an example of how D&D knows Hit Points don't scale well (at least not in all situations), so it introduces a mechanic to get around them.

I'm not sure I see why an epic hero shouldn't be as immune to poison as he is to steel.

In a way he is almost as immune to poison as to steel... its called a saving throw. High level characters can have hideously large save bonuses. Especially with a few cloaks of resistance scattered about.

 

[Jordan]

In a way he is almost as immune to poison as to steel... its called a saving throw. High level characters can have hideously large save bonuses. Especially with a few cloaks of resistance scattered about.

And thus we have the concept of save DCs, with more dangerous things requiring a better saving throw. Personally, I don't think a 20th level barbarian hero should have to be afraid of some poison home-brewed by a novice assassin with a day job at the local stables. But he should definitely be afraid of the poison of the legendary Beast of the Toxic Marsh. And 3e has provided us with a way to make the latter poison more dangerous than the former - by giving it a higher save DC.

 

[mmadsen]

And thus we have the concept of save DCs, with more dangerous things requiring a better saving throw....And 3e has provided us with a way to make the latter poison more dangerous than the former - by giving it a higher save DC.

And, of course, Save DCs (that go up with level) vs. Saves (that go up with level) to do damage to Abilities (that don't go up with level) would be analogous to To-Hit Bonuses (that go up with level) vs. Armor Classes (that go up with level) to do damage to Hit Points (that don't go up with level).

Of course, D&D doesn't take that route with combat, just with poison. In combat, To-Hit Bonuses go up with level, Armor Classes only go up indirectly (via magic items and spells), and Hit Points go up dramatically.

 

[Jordan]

Well, of course D&D uses different play mechanics for different things... It helps provide for different types of characters. For example, a character who's a complete badass in combat might be fairly sickly and susceptible to poison and/or disease.

 

[drothgery]

Abilities (that don't go up with level)

Abilities don't go up very fast with level, but last time I checked you did get a free +1 every 4 levels. And high-level characters usually acquire some stat-boosting items at some point.

 

[rounser]

Based on my own experiences, I think Monte missed a big part of D&D's appeal, which is the sheer quantity, quality and novelty of monsters, magic items and spells that D&D offers (in that order of importance, IMO). It's easy to take them for granted, but IMO, none of the things he mentioned would be worth nearly as much if the system wasn't as strong as it is in these areas.

Perhaps he's overlooking just how much of the appeal of the game is caught up in having those resources available, and how few other systems come close in offering such a richness of them. Even systems which are supposed to cover the same sort of terrain seem to be lacking in one or more of these departments (in terms of quantity, quality or novelty).

When my friends and I first got the game we were concerned with trying out all the cool stuff in the Monster Manual and the magic items chapter of the DMG, and in maybe becoming powerful enough to use the high level spells. When using the books, the screen time given to the rules sections came secondary to ogling the contents of the Monster Manual, the magic item chapter of the DMG, or the spell section of the PHB. Those chapters are responsible for a lot of the genius of D&D, IMO.