D&D 5E The Glass Cannon or the Bag of Hit Points

[Tony Vargas]

Solo's are a unique problem due to the Action Economy. They'll never compete with the PCs if they are all able to focus on it so do you provide minions to help it or massively boost hp and threats so it's a challenge? One example is dragons, I've found all they can do as written is skirmish a party as a toe to toe solo is a slaughter.

You can give them a mountain of hit points, but you'll also need to prevent lock-downs ('action preservation'), and give them enough offense - multiple attacks are pretty common among 5e monsters, you could give a dragon a claw/claw/bite/tail-lash/wing-buffet/rake/rake 'Dragon Rampant' attack routine (not quite all useable on the same target), bonus action attacks, reactions that combine defense/offense....

 

[transtemporal]

Solo's are a unique problem due to the Action Economy. They'll never compete with the PCs if they are all able to focus on it so do you provide minions to help it or massively boost hp and threats so it's a challenge? One example is dragons, I've found all they can do as written is skirmish a party as a toe to toe solo is a slaughter.

I dunno if that's purely because of the action economy. The simple fact of focus firing puts a single monster at a huge disadvantage.

I mucked around a bit with the Solo formula in 4e from about level 8 onwards, increasing damage and/or hp from fight to fight and I found that a single level-appropriate solo with x2hp (so x8 normal creature) and 130-150% damage provided a pretty decent, satisfying fight. They still defeated it in about 4-5 rounds but it was tough enough to take a few hits and dish out enough to make it exciting, maybe drop a couple of PCs but not enough to cause a TPK. I don't want to make monsters undefeatable, just memorable.

I also tried x4hp, 200% damage but that was way too deadly. :-D

 

[Celtavian]

You should carefully construct the creature to challenge the party you are running.

If the party has powerful stun capabilities, the creature should be resilient to that ability either possessing a high save or outright immunity.

If the party does a ton of damage, you up the hit points.

If the party wins with effects, your enemy should counter the effect.

The gist of this is it is never as simple as glass cannon or pile of hit points. It depends on what you want to accomplish. You may use a glass cannon with very good defensive movement requiring the party to slow the enemy down or spot him to kill him. That becomes the challenge the party faces. If you have a big brute creature meant to fight the party in direct combat, you create that creature with a pile of hit points and powerful saves and defenses against their most powerful control abilities. Mix it up to keep the party guessing and feeling challenged.

You should always have some idea of their DPR output against the AC and defenses of the major enemies you will pit them against. Don't worry too much about the trash. The party should carve through trash like fictional heroes do the wandering trash in films and books. The major encounters should be challenging and you have carefully craft such encounters to specifically challenge the capabilities of the party you are running. It won't be as easy as glass cannon versus bag of hit points.

 

[justinj3x3]

You should carefully construct the creature to challenge the party you are running.
.

Celktavian, let me respond to you're private message in a public forum so I can make this PERFECTLY CLEAR! You said: " You're just another whiner that feels like crying on the Internet is "speaking your mind." Go whine where someone else might listen."

I don't care what you think about what I have to say. I don't care if you want to argue or debate or give me a hard time about what I'm saying. What I do care about is people giving other people a hard time for speaking their minds. Not for giving them a hard time about what they say. For giving them a hard time about them saying it. There are people in this world that don't have that luxury. There are people in the world who DIED and are DYING so that we do have that luxury. So you damn well better RESPECT my ability to say what I have to say. You may not like what I have to say and you can feel free to call me a 'whiner' for having an issue with that (or for debating the meaning of a word if that's what you are referring to ). I can debate something being outsourced and I can say I feel its annoying when people make comments that dissuade others from making an opinion and there is nothing wrong with me nor am I a 'bad' person feeling that way. So again give me a hard time all you want for what I say, but not for saying it. BECAUSE I"M GOING TO SAY IT BUDDY!

 

[justinj3x3]

PS. You're wrong. I can still post on this forum. So lets continue this in public (and in a thread where I can speak for myself), rather than in private (or in a thread where I can't speak for myself) shall we?

Mod Note: So folks are aware, they may stop reporting this altercation, as it has been dealt with. Thanks. ~Umbran

 

[Celtavian]

Celktavian, let me respond to you're private message in a public forum so I can make this PERFECTLY CLEAR! You said: " You're just another whiner that feels like crying on the Internet is "speaking your mind." Go whine where someone else might listen."

I don't care what you think about what I have to say. I don't care if you want to argue or debate or give me a hard time about what I'm saying. What I do care about is people giving other people a hard time for speaking their minds. Not for giving them a hard time about what they say. For giving them a hard time about them saying it. There are people in this world that don't have that luxury. There are people in the world who DIED and are DYING so that we do have that luxury. So you damn well better RESPECT my ability to say what I have to say. You may not like what I have to say and you can feel free to call me a 'whiner' for having an issue with that (or for debating the meaning of a word if that's what you are referring to ). I can debate something being outsourced and I can say I feel its annoying when people make comments that dissuade others from making an opinion and there is nothing wrong with me nor am I a 'bad' person feeling that way. So again give me a hard time all you want for what I say, but not for saying it. BECAUSE I"M GOING TO SAY IT BUDDY!

Are you seriously using a thread to continue some beef you started in a private message? You are one of the most immature people I've yet had the displeasure of interacting with on a forum. Do not derail threads for foolishness. You want to grind some beef, start a separate thread.

 

[justinj3x3]

Despite me saying let's continue this, that's all I really have to say and I'm sorry to sidetrack the thread, but this doesn't need nor deserve it's own thread. And honestly what I said applies to all threads. The thread can carry on without another post from me. You can keep insulting me and talking trash but I'm done with this. Have fun. PS You started beef in a thread where I had no way to post so yes I responded with a PM. And yes I brought it public where you last posted because it's a valid discussion, which I'm sorry to Morrus for getting snarky about it. I admit that was the wrong way to discuss my issue.

 

[cmad1977]

So the answer to the question
'Bag of Hp or Glass Cannon' is:
Have the party distracted by two dudes in a private, completely unrelated conflict.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Solo's are a unique problem due to the Action Economy. They'll never compete with the PCs if they are all able to focus on it so do you provide minions to help it or massively boost hp and threats so it's a challenge? One example is dragons, I've found all they can do as written is skirmish a party as a toe to toe solo is a slaughter.

Dragons can totally solo a party if you give them class levels. All of my dragons come with built-in levels in Dragon Sorcerer, and it turns out that even 6 to 8 levels massively buff the dragon's survivability and threat level. For example, imagine an adult blue dragon with Sorcerer 8. Not only can he Shield himself (completely negating the value of Sharpshooter and of skeleton armies, and greatly degrading other ranged/melee attacks), but he can also pull the Darkness + blindsight combo, or Counterspell PC spells, or Quickened Dimension Door right on top of the squishiest PC before unleashing a full round's worth of attacks on them (breathe/tailx3), or cast Quickened Hold Person IV before a full melee attack sequence (claw/claw/bite/tailx3, auto-critting). The synergies between a tanky chassis and metamagic + spells are amazing. (I use SP in my campaign BTW, not spell slots.)

I recommend you give dragons another shot, with sorc levels.

P.S. Another thing to try is a glass cannon with a big, interesting vulnerability. Vampires are a good example. E.g. vampires are nightmarish in the dark, and even in the day they're pretty bad news, but if you can grapple a vampire/vampire spawn you can drag him into the sunlight, and due to daylight disadvantage he has a tough time breaking free or damaging you. So the player gets to feel like he beat the monster by being smart and exploiting its vulnerability, not just chewing through raw HP, even though HP were still a factor. They have other weaknesses too such as running water, mirrors, and garlic, all of which can be interesting. Another interesting example is low-level drow warriors, who can be anything from nightmarish (in the dark beyond your darkvision range, shooting you full of poisoned quarrels every round) to as-easy-as-their-CR-implies (if you out-Stealth them and counter-ambush them, and control the lighting/range using Dancing Lights or lit torches, especially if you have Protection From Poison cast).

 

[Psikerlord#]

My suggestions:

1. Stop using the -5/+10 mechanic from SS and GWM (assuming you are using those)
2. Add more monsters, rather than beef anything up. More monsters = more attack chances and focus fire being less effective. Against my party of 3-4 PCs, I regularly throw a bonus 8-10 low level but high damage beasties who chip away at the party.