Bedrockgames
I post in the voice of Christopher Walken
I ended up getting the Games Workshop version, and will get the Mongoose version next month if I can
The Good Sandbox Thread [+]
- Thread starter Bedrockgames
- Start date
I haven't looked at much Mongoose stuff. I really like the 1977 edition (which was the first RPG I ever owned).
For my own Traveller play, I use a ruleset that starts with 1977, feeds in the S4 options, uses most of the later skills (but not all: I treat Gravitics as an aspect of Engineering, Lawyer as an aspect of Admin, and Trader as an aspect of Broker), adds the Special Duty line from MegaTraveller (because, especially with extra skills, the 1977 characters are just a touch underdone), and includes a few bits and pieces from the 1981 version and Andy Slack's articles in early White Dwarf.
I have described it as a sandbox hexcrawl in the past, so this is probably the thread where I should talk about my campaign some more.
I have written about my sessions in the commentary thread for the “Describe your game in five words” thread. You can read about them here.
I started out running the game in PF2 then switched to 5e then WWN then OSE before I decided that I needed to design my own system to do what I want because what I want is to run a low-prep hexcrawl, and I don’t consider hexcrawls where you spend a lot of time up front to be low-prep. (Ignore that designing one’s own game requires a non-trivial amount of effort.)
When we started, I put a map of the region down on the table and talked about things until the players found something that interested them. They decided they wanted to loot the fallen capital. Long ago, there was a magical accident that essentially destroyed the area. Over the last few hundred years, there has been some work done to pacify it, but the capital is still sealed.
Over the last 40~50 sessions (I lost count, but I’m fairly sure from our calendar that it’s in that range), the PCs set the course of play. They started out exploring some ruins to the east. They were looking for information or something that could help them find out more about the capital. That’s where they freed Ellenore from a bad situation of her own making. She’d trapped herself in a pocket dimension.
That’s also where they found a deed to a manor house. It was just random treasure, but it has become a focal point of play. At that location, I ran Halls of the Blood King (at the time using WWN). The PCs managed to extract a bunch of treasure, but the major thing they got out of it was the Princess of Blood as an ally (which is funny because Deirdre [the barbarian] really hates vampires).
The PCs have worked to secure the area around their manor. They killed a ton of stirges, negotiated with a dragon, and have been working to get the local raiders off their backs. In the interim, I ran The Incandescent Grottoes when they went to investigate a cave that Ellenore was interested in investigating (before she came to work at the manor).
The PCs pretty much drive play through the goals they set (campaign-level, group-level, individually). I just provide the adversity they need, and lots of cool stuff happens. The system helps me avoid conflicts of interest, so I can respond to what they are doing without its being unfair (e.g., if they establish something, I can’t negate their success, so no quantum ogre type stuff).
Alas, the campaign is on hiatus right now due to our having a baby last fall. Things are getting to a point where I may be able to run again later this year, but I have to do some design work because I find myself souring on the way I was using trackers to run conflicts. I want to move away from them, but it’s going to be a non-trivial change. I also have some reading to do on design.
I have written about my sessions in the commentary thread for the “Describe your game in five words” thread. You can read about them here.
I started out running the game in PF2 then switched to 5e then WWN then OSE before I decided that I needed to design my own system to do what I want because what I want is to run a low-prep hexcrawl, and I don’t consider hexcrawls where you spend a lot of time up front to be low-prep. (Ignore that designing one’s own game requires a non-trivial amount of effort.)
When we started, I put a map of the region down on the table and talked about things until the players found something that interested them. They decided they wanted to loot the fallen capital. Long ago, there was a magical accident that essentially destroyed the area. Over the last few hundred years, there has been some work done to pacify it, but the capital is still sealed.
Over the last 40~50 sessions (I lost count, but I’m fairly sure from our calendar that it’s in that range), the PCs set the course of play. They started out exploring some ruins to the east. They were looking for information or something that could help them find out more about the capital. That’s where they freed Ellenore from a bad situation of her own making. She’d trapped herself in a pocket dimension.
That’s also where they found a deed to a manor house. It was just random treasure, but it has become a focal point of play. At that location, I ran Halls of the Blood King (at the time using WWN). The PCs managed to extract a bunch of treasure, but the major thing they got out of it was the Princess of Blood as an ally (which is funny because Deirdre [the barbarian] really hates vampires).
The PCs have worked to secure the area around their manor. They killed a ton of stirges, negotiated with a dragon, and have been working to get the local raiders off their backs. In the interim, I ran The Incandescent Grottoes when they went to investigate a cave that Ellenore was interested in investigating (before she came to work at the manor).
The PCs pretty much drive play through the goals they set (campaign-level, group-level, individually). I just provide the adversity they need, and lots of cool stuff happens. The system helps me avoid conflicts of interest, so I can respond to what they are doing without its being unfair (e.g., if they establish something, I can’t negate their success, so no quantum ogre type stuff).
Alas, the campaign is on hiatus right now due to our having a baby last fall. Things are getting to a point where I may be able to run again later this year, but I have to do some design work because I find myself souring on the way I was using trackers to run conflicts. I want to move away from them, but it’s going to be a non-trivial change. I also have some reading to do on design.
Bedrockgames
I post in the voice of Christopher Walken
I like going to the originals when I can. I ended up getting CT-TTB The Traveller Book, which I was advices was a consolidation of the core books, from Games Workshop. Do you happen to know if this is the original traveller from 1977 (I believe the 1977 version is the one I've played in because the booklets the GM used look like the originals when I have seen people share them in forums, but I am not well versed in Traveller). This is the DRIVE THRU link of the one I picked up if that helps.
The Traveller Book is the 1981 version, I think with some further minor tweaks.
Visually the 1977 and 1981 versions are quite similar, so you may have been playing 1981 rather than 1977.
An index of the changes between/across these versions can be found here: Classic Traveller Editions–A Section-by-Section Comparison
Enaknomolos
Explorer
For me, Traveller is the ultimate sandbox game, so I'm glad to see the thread has already gone there!
I think the key is that Marc Miller took something in OD&D and ran with it more systematically than anyone else: Traveller just consists of modular procedures that work at different levels. Those three tiny 1977 books let you procedurally generate people, animals, encounters, patrons, starships, planets, sectors of space, interstellar markets, and probably more.
I think Mongoose gets this. Their World Builder's Handbook contains degree-level astrophysics, complete with equations; but you can just use the bits you want and fold the rest into the simple system in their core book, which is compatible with 1977 system, which is still compatible with the referee making something up and putting numbers on it after. They take the permissive 'support if you want it; but, hey, don't sweat it' approach to a ridiculous extent.
By, stereotypically, making you a retiree trying to make mortgage on their starship, Traveller also illustrates a really important thing about sandboxes that I think people sometimes struggle with: you need a big obvious motivation to get the players started. That motivation doesn't need to structure the whole campaign, but you do need an initial 'what are we trying to do here?'
Another game that I think does sandboxes really well is UVG. The endpapers are a giant flowchart that structures gameplay. If you follow that procedure, an escalating open-ended pile of entertaining chaos is more or less guaranteed. I did no prep at all between sessions, but it worked great.
Finally, I'd say people often associate 'sandbox' with OSR-style play, but I think it's broader than that. To me, the threats and referee procedures in Apocalypse World, plus all the world creation implicit in the playbooks, are basically a brilliant set of tools for creating a very specific sandbox. The emphasis is a bit more on exploring relationships and a bit less on exploring the world, but even that is only a matter of degree.
I think the key is that Marc Miller took something in OD&D and ran with it more systematically than anyone else: Traveller just consists of modular procedures that work at different levels. Those three tiny 1977 books let you procedurally generate people, animals, encounters, patrons, starships, planets, sectors of space, interstellar markets, and probably more.
I think Mongoose gets this. Their World Builder's Handbook contains degree-level astrophysics, complete with equations; but you can just use the bits you want and fold the rest into the simple system in their core book, which is compatible with 1977 system, which is still compatible with the referee making something up and putting numbers on it after. They take the permissive 'support if you want it; but, hey, don't sweat it' approach to a ridiculous extent.
By, stereotypically, making you a retiree trying to make mortgage on their starship, Traveller also illustrates a really important thing about sandboxes that I think people sometimes struggle with: you need a big obvious motivation to get the players started. That motivation doesn't need to structure the whole campaign, but you do need an initial 'what are we trying to do here?'
Another game that I think does sandboxes really well is UVG. The endpapers are a giant flowchart that structures gameplay. If you follow that procedure, an escalating open-ended pile of entertaining chaos is more or less guaranteed. I did no prep at all between sessions, but it worked great.
Finally, I'd say people often associate 'sandbox' with OSR-style play, but I think it's broader than that. To me, the threats and referee procedures in Apocalypse World, plus all the world creation implicit in the playbooks, are basically a brilliant set of tools for creating a very specific sandbox. The emphasis is a bit more on exploring relationships and a bit less on exploring the world, but even that is only a matter of degree.
payn
Glory to Marik
I agree, motivation has been the bane of many of my Traveller games. Again, major brownie points for Pirates of Drinax as the overreaching meta-goal of becoming lords/pirates/etc.. of the Trojan Reach both allows a wide birth for adventure types and agendas, and it provides a big area of space, but not an infinite amount of space to explore. Ever since, I'll never start a Traveller game without a meta-goal again. No more "so a bunch of folks that got a mortgage to pay..."
For traditional games, I love Mongoose connection chargen rule. Not only does it help players fill in skill gaps, it connects the Travellers to each other beyond living on a mortgaged space ship. The best chargen system out there, got even better to do live together. How cool is that?
Agreed. I think some purist out there just put all their eggs in a non-prepped imoprov run by the seat of my random table, box. Instead of viewing west marches as a type of sandbox, its seen as the only possibility of sandbox. There are plenty of ways to skin that cat. Many of the Paizo APs, often derided as railroads, actually offer interesting and intriguing sandbox potential. Many RPG systems can take the emphasis in different directions such as what is mentioned here and adding more narrative control to the PCs. Its all about preference and taste, and not about drawing lines in the sand.
payn
Glory to Marik
Its been used for decades. Though, it backfired a few times on me. My players went down a deep rabbit hole of finding a trade route like Traveller was the Merchant of Venus board game RPG port. They looked up all the obnoxiously long system codes to find who needed textiles or electronics etc... Every adventure hook was "too dangerous cant risk the ship we gotta pay it off..." So, yeah... Ive stopped using the mortgage as a motivator for a campaign in Traveller.
We got pulled into the pirate stuff pretty quickly because that's a MUCH more fun way to gather the necessary scratch.
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