The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

[Plane Sailing]

Why would a fifth level character ever be facing a horde of lvl 30 minions? Or even one?

I got to page 5 and there was a whole lot of missing the point about the 5th level daily automatically killing minions. Apologies if this has been mentioned from page 6 onwards...

The issue is that a 26th level character (who would quite legitimately be fighting 26th level minions) can still use a 5th level daily to automatically wipe out all adjacent minions for the duration of the encounter.

Is it too good in that context? Is it too good compared to other daily powers available?

Cheers

 

[Keenath]

Double fail; He's obviously a heavily-armored archer who has a back-up weapon and a shield for when he runs out of arrows.

That's not obvious at all.

It's just Occam's Razor -- the simplest explanation is probably correct, assuming all the options explain the phenomenon.

Which is more likely?
That you're seeing a character who has gone through the contortions necessary to build an armored archer despite the fact that his key attack ability (dexterity) can't fully apply to his defense when he's wearing that armor?
Or that he's a strength-based sword-and-board meleeist who happens to be shooting an arrow for the purpose of producing a dramatic pose?

 

[Storm Raven]

That's not obvious at all.

It's just Occam's Razor -- the simplest explanation is probably correct, assuming all the options explain the phenomenon.

Which is more likely?
That you're seeing a character who has gone through the contortions necessary to build an armored archer despite the fact that his key attack ability (dexterity) can't fully apply to his defense when he's wearing that armor?
Or that he's a strength-based sword-and-board meleeist who happens to be shooting an arrow for the purpose of producing a dramatic pose?

Quadruple fail.

The character in question is on the cover of an edition of rules that didn't have any armor-based limitations on how much of his Dexterity bonus he can apply to his defense.

 

[Wolfwood2]

I got to page 5 and there was a whole lot of missing the point about the 5th level daily automatically killing minions. Apologies if this has been mentioned from page 6 onwards...

The issue is that a 26th level character (who would quite legitimately be fighting 26th level minions) can still use a 5th level daily to automatically wipe out all adjacent minions for the duration of the encounter.

Is it too good in that context? Is it too good compared to other daily powers available?

No, powers are supposed to scale up to retain some usefulness at all levels. If a 26th level character is using a daily he first got at 5th level to wipe out 26th level minions, that's legit. Presumably dailies he first got at higher levels would do better, but the 5th level one shouldn't be useless.

 

[Voadam]

4e does answer questions about daily powers. It's on page 54 of the PHB.

For those of us who have not yet gotten the not as of yet released PH could you tell us what it does say about daily martial powers on page 54?

Martial dailies as an in game concept is OK with a ki power type of explanation IMO (fighters as anime jedi could work), but most of the non magical explanations have not been to my taste and I am interested in what the game has to say about them.

Mechanically and story wise I like per encounter abilities much better and the explanations people provide seem to fit much better IMO. Its when the characters are deciding to rest up or press on that this issue makes itself visible to me.

 

[Voadam]

I disagree here. I find it very awkward that a Paladin can say "My god allows me to smite evil only twice a day!" or a Cleric saying "My god grants me only 3 Flame Strikes per day".

It might be explainable, because "it is magic", but it never felt right to me. Forgetting spells is a very specific concept of magic, and not a typical idea. And why would every god give the same number of spells to equal level Clerics?

You find it awkward that a character can describe magical mechanics as they exist in D&D?

I dislike daily powers whether they are 3e spell-like abilities, paladin smites, or barbarian rages and much prefer at will or recharging powers (such as psionic focus and soulknife psychic strike).

4e half deals with this by making spellcasters not solely daily based spell casters, but they still do vancian magic with their daily spells and now nonmagical classes have the same issue without even the arbitrary nature of supernatural magic to explain the tempo of their abilities.

I prefer the idea used for martial heroes that such powers are difficult to use and require the correct circumstances. The encounter/daily denotion just represents the players right to narrate this circumstances.

I find that explanation jarring when roleplaying out making plans and decisions.

Yes, it is less... how should I put... immersive then the previous way, since the rules don't tell us exactly what the character how a character comes to the conclusion he should use a power, or if he has expended them.

Exactly.

But then, this character perspective allows you to describe it as you want, without risking to break any in-game world laws...

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

You find it awkward that a character can describe magical mechanics as they exist in D&D?

I don't like it that I am forced to use only one explanation for magic, especially one that is so alien to me as Vancian magic. It never felt right to me, and I don't see many fantasy settings supporting this kind of "fire and forget" mechanic.

I dislike daily powers whether they are 3e spell-like abilities, paladin smites, or barbarian rages and much prefer at will or recharging powers (such as psionic focus and soulknife psychic strike).

4e half deals with this by making spellcasters not solely daily based spell casters, but they still do vancian magic with their daily spells and now nonmagical classes have the same issue without even the arbitrary nature of supernatural magic to explain the tempo of their abilities.

Personally, I probably could have done with a lot less daily powers as it is. Just enough to ensure that you can't go on forever due to unlimited healing.

I find that explanation jarring when roleplaying out making plans and decisions.

Yes, I can see that happening. For planning it might be easiest to just "hand-wave" and say that the character feels to tired to pull of the plan. (Especially if the plan the players come up with rely on using a lot of daily powers you no longer have access to.)

Exactly.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.

Explainations for the Daily and Encounter nature of powers for martial characters are left to interpretation of the player.

Vancian Magic á la 3E didn't give this freedom. You could memorize/prepare X spells of level Y, and if you expended them, they were gone. The explaination was that this is how magic works in D&D. If you don't like it, create a new subsystem (aka psioncs).

4E now gives me an alternate route to explain the daily or encounter limitations of spells. I can use the same approach I use for martial powers also for spells and prayers.

Off course, no one really forced me to use only the old "vancian" flavor text for 3E. But I never had an idea how to do it differently, until now. And since the whole system assumes such an approach, it also feels a lot of easier to "get through" with it. If I want that Mages are gathering Mana to fuel their spells, I don't have to rewrite a spell point system for 4E. I can just use the existing framework and narrate the mana gathering stuff into the game.

 

[Voadam]

. . .


Explainations for the Daily and Encounter nature of powers for martial characters are left to interpretation of the player.

Vancian Magic á la 3E didn't give this freedom. You could memorize/prepare X spells of level Y, and if you expended them, they were gone. The explaination was that this is how magic works in D&D. If you don't like it, create a new subsystem (aka psioncs).

4E now gives me an alternate route to explain the daily or encounter limitations of spells. I can use the same approach I use for martial powers also for spells and prayers.

Off course, no one really forced me to use only the old "vancian" flavor text for 3E. But I never had an idea how to do it differently, until now. And since the whole system assumes such an approach, it also feels a lot of easier to "get through" with it. If I want that Mages are gathering Mana to fuel their spells, I don't have to rewrite a spell point system for 4E. I can just use the existing framework and narrate the mana gathering stuff into the game.

Can you give some examples of what you are applying from the martials to magic powers?

I'm having a hard time picturing once a day magic powers as "getting into the zone" or "circumstances being just right".

"Do it yourself and make it work" when it doesn't seem to work for me makes this more of a bug than a feature for me.

If you didn't like the default explanation for before even though it worked and you come up with one or multiple ones now that work for you then I fully understand you seeing it as a feature instead of a bug.

As a matter of preference I too dislike Vancian and per day abilities, though from a gameplay and world flavor angle. I liked the UA spontaneous divine casters options, the recharge magic variant and 3e warlocks and dragonfire adept magic classes a lot for their style of D&D magic. Vancian and magical per day abilities could be easily explained in game though which I enjoyed a lot.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Hard example:

Mana Flow. The world is permeated with Mana. There is not an infinite amount, and there are different levels, and it in constant flux.
Spellcasters can try to gather mana, but it takes a little time.
At-Will Powers can do fine with the ambient mana commonly available.
Encounter Powers require some gathering of mana. Hence, a short rest allows a spellcaster to recover enough mana to fuel his encounter powers.
Daily Powers require a larger then usual concentration of mana.

Using a magical power requires manipulating not only the mana available to you, but also the mana in the power. If the mana flux in your target is right, you can try to to pull of your encounter or daily power.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

Hard example:

Mana Flow. The world is permeated with Mana. There is not an infinite amount, and there are different levels, and it in constant flux.
Spellcasters can try to gather mana, but it takes a little time.
At-Will Powers can do fine with the ambient mana commonly available.
Encounter Powers require some gathering of mana. Hence, a short rest allows a spellcaster to recover enough mana to fuel his encounter powers.
Daily Powers require a larger then usual concentration of mana.

Using a magical power requires manipulating not only the mana available to you, but also the mana in the power. If the mana flux in your target is right, you can try to to pull of your encounter or daily power.

How does this work with dailies recharging after a 6 hour rest but only once a day.