The Great D&D Schism: The End of an age and the scattering of gamers

[GMforPowergamers]

That was a weird 4e thing - and I'm not edition warring here - but in 3e you basically had the same system: a standard action, a move action, and if you had something a swift action - but I'd never heard people constantly complaining about people trying to min-max their swift actions as a resource.

Were there just that many minor actions to choose from in 4e? Was that the real problem? Because I've heard it said that it was a play-style thing.

I don't know if it was a 4e thing, but it was the guy who lived with me in 4e thing... he was never before like this, but for the last few years has been getting worse and worse about it... and it has carried to other games...

 

[pemerton]

what they focused on became a hell of a lot worse when 4th edition arrived, unless you had DDI. I can tell you how many books one would have to sift through in order to find facts on specific powers and actions.

I GM 4e and I need my monster descriptions and the Essentials Compendium. My players need their PC sheets. (Not the DDI ones, which are crap. We have home-made ones.)

That was a weird 4e thing

<snip>

Were there just that many minor actions to choose from in 4e?

Not meaning to disrespect other editions (and certainly not 3E, which I have little experience with), but 4e is mechanically much, much tighter - including in its action economy. It's one of the most striking features of the edition, I think (whether or not one likes it, and I think differing responses to this tightness help explain some of that like/dislike).

I think it's natural that it then encourages the same sort of tightness or attempt at precision from players. Cetainy in my case I find most of my players, each turn, cycle through a mental "checklist" that includes possible minor actions.

It can be frustrating for those who don't know their characters well enough, and so dither at that point. Because most minors don't affect monsters/NPCs, but are self or ally buffs/heals, I tend to move on as GM and let them resolve any minor action on their own. If I need to know about it, they can let me know!

 

[Incenjucar]

That was a weird 4e thing - and I'm not edition warring here - but in 3e you basically had the same system: a standard action, a move action, and if you had something a swift action - but I'd never heard people constantly complaining about people trying to min-max their swift actions as a resource.

Were there just that many minor actions to choose from in 4e? Was that the real problem? Because I've heard it said that it was a play-style thing.

4E comes with a lot of back-and-forth moment-to-moment in combat for all characters regardless of class, you'll often see people get desperate for just one more action no matter how small to keep from getting flattened by that elite ogre warlord that survived a critical hit despite being bloodied and oh the DM just rolled a 6 on the recharge die.

In 3E, it was mostly just the spellcasters, particularly wizards, and they were usually just firing off an extra full action instead of a specialized swift action ability.

 

[pemerton]

4E comes with a lot of back-and-forth moment-to-moment in combat for all characters regardless of class, you'll often see people get desperate for just one more action no matter how small

At least for me, this phenomenon - which I agree is present - is closely related to the mechanical tightness.

 

[fantasmamore]

There is something that I don't understand. I DM a group that plays 4e and another one that plays Dragon Age. When our Dragon Age campaign comes to an end, I will tell my players that I know how to play Castles and Crusades and 4e, so if I am going to be a DM again, they have to choose one of these two games. I will be more than happy to play any other game (Pathfinder, 3.5 e etc) as a player if they want to be DMs. Actually I prefer being a player, last time that I played as such, was 18 years ago (a lifetime!) when I was playing AD&D.
Because there are two things that make me love the tabletop RPG games. The epic story that evolves session after session and my friends around the table. The only thing that changes is a small detail. The rules.
There is no schism if you love stories and your friends. The worst thing that is going to happen is that your wizard will have different spells. So what? I enjoyed the first trilogy of Salvatore about Drizzt, I enjoyed the LOTR and I am currently reading The sword of Shannara by Brooks. All different books, magic is different, the world is different but what remains in your mind after finishing each book, is the story. Even Elric of Melnibone, which I didn't like all that much, gave me an experience and I am never going to say that I regret reading it.
So, in my opinion, the only thing that creates schisms and could prove fatal for the game is our ability to adapt. After all, it's just that... Rules! Nothing that can't change!
(Sorry for my english)

 

[Herschel]

Oh you don't remember this condescending abomination of an ad?

The game was poking fun at itself, and the things in the game many of it's most die-hard fans complained about. You were only offended if you were consciously trying to be.

Was this also a condescending abomination of an ad?

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/2ebook.pdf

 

[Herschel]

The problem is they over exaggerated the issue to an almost ridiculous level.

Of course they did, that was the whole point. EVERYTHING in the ad was a silly exageration for comedic effect, including the cheesey accent on the narrator.

 

[Herschel]

Simple and bland.
At least 3E takes the size of the creatures into account. And I take a little less simple and flavorful over extremely simple and bland every day.

So does 4E (you can't grapple anything more than one size category larger than you), but don't let facts get in your way.

 

[Derren]

So does 4E (you can't grapple anything more than one size category larger than you), but don't let facts get in your way.

And of course you have a hard time grappling something exactly 1 size larger than you. Or have an easy time grappling something smaller than you. Oh wait, you don't. This size difference is not taken into account. But don't let facts get in your way...

 

[Ahnehnois]

The game was poking fun at itself, and the things in the game many of it's most die-hard fans complained about. You were only offended if you were consciously trying to be.

I don't really find it offensive per se, it's just a bad advertisement, and a false one. The game didn't stay the same.

That being said, your comment could equally be applied to all the supposed issues it was talking about. No one is bothered unless they're trying to be by the grappling rules or the identity of miniatures the balance between classes or anything else on the list of things that suddenly became huge problems when they decided to ditch the OGL and make a new and different game.