The Great Longbow Debate

[mhensley]

and having just (last week!) finished reading Bernard Cornwell's Azincourt.

Great book and gives you pretty much everything you need to know about longbows. English archers were greatly feared for a reason.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

This thread gets a two-finger salute!

 

[El Mahdi]

No, it isn't. It really, really isn't. The two are related to the same quantities, ...

Thanks Umbran. I honestly didn't know there was a difference between energy and momentum. That was pretty cool. Made me feel like I was back in a high school math or physics class though ... but still pretty cool.

So does that explain why a large caliber round, or a hollow point round of any caliber, does more damage? Is it because it's able to transfer more of it's momentum to the target?

 

[wedgeski]

... Englishmen for a time, were actually required to participate in regular archery practice. The place in a village where this occured was called the Butts. A lot of villages still have areas or streets named this even today.

Indeed so. The city of Worcester, in the UK, where I live, has such a place. I believe also (although this may be fallacious) that the law which required men to do this is actually still on the statute in some places, and therefore potentially enforceable!

 

[Rykion]

I've seen arguments for and against that concept. Some say that all the stopping power of the arrow came from gravity. It was the downwards arc where the arrow gained the most velocity. And even then, normally only after having been fired pretty much straight up.

I suspect this idea has more to do with effectiveness then stopping power. The English longbowman's favorite target was the French Knight. When you are trying to stop heavy cavalry, taking out the horse is usually just as effective as taking out the rider. A horse is a big target from above so dropping arrows have a good chance to hit. The horse is also not likely to be as well armored as the rider. Most archers aren't going to be calmly loosing arrows as the charging knights get close. The bowmen will ideally retire behind a line of men-at-arms before the charge hits home, or draw hand weapons if they have to fight themselves. The longbow was definitely a weapon used to volley fire at range.

That said, I really don't think a longbow needs a minimum range in a roleplaying game. It should also do a lot of damage, but require special training as others have mentioned.

 

[malraux]

Thanks Umbarn. I honestly didn't know there was a difference between energy and momentum. That was pretty cool. Made me feel like I was back in a high school math or physics class though ... but still pretty cool.

So does that explain why a large caliber round, or a hollow point round of any caliber, does more damage? Is it because it's able to transfer more of it's momentum to the target?

The larger caliber is larger, increasing the mass involved. But really, the energy and momentum exchanged isn't all that important; neither has enough force to knock you over, for example. The reason why both arrows and bullets are deadly is that they both impart that energy to fairly small areas. Hollow points deform/mushroom once they hit, which results in a larger cross-section, thus damaging more tissue as it passes through. It does also decrease the chance of complete penetration, because more of the energy is being exchanged. The purpose of these weapons is to mangle the flesh that it contacts.

Typical broadheads end up cutting a large number of blood vessels when they hit. In some ways, a broadhead is applying a much greater impulse because its leading edge is very narrow; typically razorblade-like. Rather than mangling flesh, arrows want to cleanly cut, causing massive bleeding.

 

[zen_hydra]

Thanks Umbarn. I honestly didn't know there was a difference between energy and momentum. That was pretty cool. Made me feel like I was back in a high school math or physics class though ... but still pretty cool.

So does that explain why a large caliber round, or a hollow point round of any caliber, does more damage? Is it because it's able to transfer more of it's momentum to the target?

That is exactly it. A large caliber, sub-sonic handgun round (like the .45 ACP) tends to do much more damage to a living target, because it transfers much more of its energy to said target than a smaller caliber, faster bullet (like the 9mm Luger) which punches through its target. Hollow-point and frangible rounds were developed to increase the energy transfer and maximize damage to the target. If I am going to get shot, I would much rather be shot by a super-sonic 9mm ball round than by a sub-sonic .45 hollow-point round. The 9mm has a better chance of creating a narrow wound channel and punching a hole right through me, but the .45 hollow-point is going mushroom out on impact creating a much larger wound channel and the greater transfer of energy is more likely to cause extreme trauma to the surrounding organs and tissues.

Edit: Damn ninjas!

 

[pawsplay]

If you want to make use of the concept of the longbow as an exotic weapon, but don't want to mess with existing D&D/d20 conventions, you could use the greatbow as a stand-in for the warbow.

 

[CharlesRyan]

The place in a village where this occured was called the Butts. A lot of villages still have areas or streets named this even today.

Called The Butts because the butts, or casks, were commonly used as targets. We have a triangle of open land here in Alton called The Butts.

 

[Amphimir Míriel]

Simply put, the idea of firing six arrows into a target in one round from five feet away is a wee bit prepostorous. But the game says "WHO CARES THIS IS KICKING RAD" and lets you do it anyways. And there's nothing wrong with that.

I'd never thought you would invoke the Rule of Cool, Professor!