The Grind Problem (My 2 Cents)

[Wulf Ratbane]

Hm, I could agree, but shouldn't this be backwards? Or was that 75% meant to be 25?

Nitpick: 30%. (+10 to hit vs. AC25 needs a 15 or better-- that's 6 pips on the d20.)

 

[Lacyon]

Where do you get this conclusion from? I'm looking at my player's character sheets (6 level 5 sheets) and in general Dailies have the same bonuses to hit as do At-Will, as do Encounters... they all have pretty much the same hit chance, except when an attack targets a non-AC defense, which any power may do.

I suspect he meant that players would hold back on their dailies until circumstances (such as Combat Advantage and bonuses from leader-types) made the thing very likely to hit.

Of course, this may just move the cause of grindspace from "dailies missing" to "leaders missing" in some cases.

 

[helium3]

E.g.: if the average attack bonus in the party is +10, and a monster has an AC of 25, the players have a 25% chance of hitting, so give the monster 75% of its listed HP. If they only have a 50% chance of hitting, give the monster 50% of its listed HP, etc.

Wouldn't it be easier to leave the hit points as is and adjust the AC down so that the party average attack has a 50/50 chance of hitting? In the above case, drop the AC by 5.

 

[gribble]

I suspect he meant that players would hold back on their dailies until circumstances (such as Combat Advantage and bonuses from leader-types) made the thing very likely to hit.

Yes, thats right. Tactical warlords and some feats give you bonuses to hit when spending action points, so I've seen players using dailies for their AP attacks, plus making use of combat advantage, negating cover and taking advantage of buffs/debuffs from leaders and controllers. When done right you can get a pretty substantial boost to your to hit roll over and above your basic attack bonus.

I believe the default assumptions are something like:
a) characters will be optimised (as someones example party was earlier in this thread) such that their primary stat is 18+ at first level.
b) characters will be optimised to have the highest possible magic item boosting their attacks
c) characters will usually use dailies when circumstances give them a greater than normal chance to hit.

When that is done, I think dailies will usually hit, and when it isn't true I think you are more likely to hit grindspace.

 

[Pseudopsyche]

I suspect he meant that players would hold back on their dailies until circumstances (such as Combat Advantage and bonuses from leader-types) made the thing very likely to hit.

This. My players often use their limited powers at suboptimal times (sometimes for valid RP reasons), and we grind more than I'd like. Most of the blame is mine, but PCs wasting encounter and daily powers doesn't help! (And one of the more tactical-minded players reliably rolls in the single digits for his encounter powers, sigh.)

 

[Lacyon]

This. My players often use their limited powers at suboptimal times (sometimes for valid RP reasons), and we grind more than I'd like.

Suggestion: if you like this style of play, you might reward it by granting bonus Action Points, recharged powers, and the like.

It should both encourage the playstyle you like, and reduce grindspace.

 

[gribble]

Suggestion: if you like this style of play, you might reward it by granting bonus Action Points, recharged powers, and the like.

We've found the best way is to cut down the HPs. We've been running with 1/2 HP for a while now, and it really doesn't make 4e combat any easier, per se, just a lot shorter and I don't think we've been back in grindspace since we started doing that.
It also has the nice side effect of levelling the monster continuum of hp - we noticed a big discrepancy between the hps of minions, normal monsters and elites/solos. It became almost jarring at times.
My worry about other methods (extra AP, extra uses of powers, bonuses to hit) is that they upset the balance built into 4e, particularly given that there are items and epic level powers that allow PCs to do this kind of thing.