The Guards at the Gate Quote

[Janx]

Yeah, no one is really disputing the fact that not every scene is worth spending time on.

The conversation is mostly about James Wyatt's way of articulating that thought, which, depending on your level of charity, is either really badly written, or actually says that the scenes that aren't worth spending time on are the scenes that are not "encounters" with "attack rolls." Some people think that the statement is a problem, for either or both reasons. Other people don't think the statement is a problem, and are shocked (shocked!) that not every rational-thinking person agrees with them.

There's another factor at play.

As the creator of a product, the creator has a vision on its use. Some evidence exists that indicates Creators define what products a Consumer needs, not the other way around.

Thus, the customer is NOT always right. (nor is the Creator, which is why their product fails).

But ultimately, every great product is made by the Creator's vision, not the customer's.

We are D&D's customer. We did not know we wanted it until Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson invented it.

People did not want an Apple technology until Apple made it.



Wyatt is speaking for the creator, saying "this is how this product should be used"

There are always going to be consumers who see the product, see the directions, and disagree and even take it a different direction, thus becoming a Creator themselves.

the point is, he is within his rights to declare the right way to use his product (as an agent of WotC) in a definitive voice.

And he's right. His way is going to get you the results he describes.

Obviously, there are other ways to use his product that may turn out fine.

It's not necessarily his job to talk about those other ways.

 

[Bullgrit]

See what just a few words can do?

Oh, I know. I'm an editor.

Bullgrit

 

[haakon1]

Examples of perfectly boring and/or annoying labyrinths in offiical D&D modules include:
- The Standing Stone (3e; burial mound)

The Standing Stones was a great, atmospheric Celtic-inspired adventure. It fits very, very well with what I like to do in D&D.

I did it as a player, and later ran it as a DM (with a different group). The fight at the end of the labyrinth with Saithnar was one of the highlights of the campaign I DM'd. I have bards singing about it -- and addendum to the existing Saithnasmal ballad in the module -- and making the PC leader/fighter famous.

Anyhow, in both cases, we didn't play out mapping the labyrinth, but moved on swiftly to the traps and encounters. It didn't take all that long, and I don't think anyone was bored.

 

[broghammerj]

I was thinking:

"I want you for the Dark Queen's Army" or

"Finger of death or my trusty spear. You choose."

 

[Imaro]

There's another factor at play.

As the creator of a product, the creator has a vision on its use. Some evidence exists that indicates Creators define what products a Consumer needs, not the other way around.

Thus, the customer is NOT always right. (nor is the Creator, which is why their product fails).

But ultimately, every great product is made by the Creator's vision, not the customer's.

We are D&D's customer. We did not know we wanted it until Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson invented it.

People did not want an Apple technology until Apple made it.



Wyatt is speaking for the creator, saying "this is how this product should be used"

There are always going to be consumers who see the product, see the directions, and disagree and even take it a different direction, thus becoming a Creator themselves.

the point is, he is within his rights to declare the right way to use his product (as an agent of WotC) in a definitive voice.

And he's right. His way is going to get you the results he describes.

Obviously, there are other ways to use his product that may turn out fine.

It's not necessarily his job to talk about those other ways.

So the stance has basically changed from... "That's not what he really meant." to... "He has every right to state how the game should be played even if you don't agree." Uhhh, ok.

Well whichever the case I don't see why, it's in any way, a mystery that this quote and others by Wyatt rub some people the wrong way.

 

[haakon1]

I am NOT a minion. I'm Old School, before Wyatt invented freaking minions!

 

[the Jester]

So minimize the time spent on mundane things where the outcome is certain.

What if your group enjoys roleplaying such scenes?

 

[GSHamster]

Hmm. I just realized that I used "Jacobite" where I should have used "Jacobin".

 

[Janx]

So the stance has basically changed from... "That's not what he really meant." to... "He has every right to state how the game should be played even if you don't agree." Uhhh, ok.

Well whichever the case I don't see why, it's in any way, a mystery that this quote and others by Wyatt rub some people the wrong way.

Technically, the Freedom of Speech covers his right to say it.

People like Steve Jobs establish the precendent of overbearingly stating how things should be and having plenty of customers lining up to buy his product that they didn't know they wanted until his company made it.

As to his what he really meant. I'm sure he meant what he said.
And that he liked the way he said it.

I don't know if he meant for some readers to get cheesed off by the way he said it. I suspect most people do not intend to make some people mad when they make statements. They probably assume that most people get their point and are surprised and then annoyed by the people who take umbrage.

I don't think he meant it to be offensive to anybody, let alone people who value things he said were unfun. So saying he "meant what he said" has to be constrained to what he actually intended, rather than what offense the reader took.

I'm certain I extracted value from his statement as it influences my design considerations.

I think my interpretation is in line with what he said, rather than being some lesson by objection.

 

[the Jester]

Why the smurf would you want to spend those 4 hours shopping for adventuring supplies from the PH as roleplayed, versus 10 minutes to look up prices, subtract the gold, and get to the dungeon or talking to the Duke about his trade agreement?

Believe it or not, even though yours may not, some groups enjoy playing those scenes out. The joy of roleplaying games includes, you know, the joy of roleplaying.