The Guards at the Gate Quote

[Reynard]

So, although I like playing out a "non-exciting" scene if it sets a mood or sets up an adventure, but this kind of thing teaches me that every such scene gives the Players a chance to totally screw up an adventure. I've also seen adventures break down based on the initial role play encounter with the quest giver. If the DM doesn't play the NPC just right, someone takes offense or gives offense and the whole thing falls apart.

Also, from what I've seen, the people who most like to play through the "non-exciting" scenes tend to be the ones most likely to skew that scene into more problem than it was intended to be. They stretch what could have been a 5-minute encounter out to an hour-long drama that cripples the rest of the game session.

Bullgrit

So don't *give* them adventures -- makie them go looking. They'll be more invested in the outcome and won't try so hardto screw it up.

 

[Aeolius]

The one that always irked me was:
"D&D is a game about slaying horrible monsters, not a game about traipsing off through fairy rings and interacting with the little people." - James Wyatt, "Races and Classes" (pg. 34)

 

[Aberzanzorax]

Long treks through endless corridors in the ancient dwarven stronghold beneath the mountains aren’t fun. Move the PCs quickly from encounter to encounter, and on to the fun!

This is the most offensive part of the quote to me.

REALLY?!?

Axe of the Dwarvish Lords
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Adventure[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]By Skip Williams [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This high-level adventure in the tradition of The Rod of Seven Parts and Return to the Tomb of Horrors involves the most powerful artifact of the Dwarven Clans! Players and Dungeon Masters love the detail and scope of AD&D super adventures, and this latest offering will not disappoint the most demanding fan. Features a wealth of background information, plenty of maps and DM advice, and a massive dungeon-crawl through an abandoned dwarven stronghold that will keep player groups busy for weeks to come. For 13th- to 15th-level player characters.[/FONT]​

from: Dungeons & Dragons


Yeah, Wyatt, that probably SUCKS.



I think the reason that this quote (in full as in the OP) and the "faerie ring" quote get so much flak is that they seem to be denying the rich history of the game, while at the same time pushing for more of an encounter (combat mainly) driven style.

It's as though the people designing and selling D&D now have never played (or are somehow unaware of) some of the most classic adventures and tropes of the game. I know that's not the case, though. Instead, they are denying these components in an attempt to slaughter even more "sacred cows" as they might call them, but rather than "killing sacred cows" they're making a fantasy rpg that need not be beholden to the focus of prior editions. (EDIT: not all the people designing D&D, necessarily, but those who make statements such as the quotes we're discussing).

Sorry, but D&D (the game, not any group or person's required experience) includes dungeon crawls, and "dungeon crawls" are not tactical skirmish tournaments.

 

[kitsune9]

I don't really understand why this quote is so objectionable that it keeps coming up years later. To me it seems like common sense. Time is a relatively scarce resource when gaming, so why not spend it on pivotal encounters, and handwave the mundane?

But in the majority of cases, the guards at the gate are unimportant, and a poor use of time. I don't really see why that quote keeps being brought up.

It depends upon the goal of the game itself, but I agree that if the goal is to have one combat after another and then followed by one skill challenge after another, it can feel tedious or that players are just slogging through. Every once in a while, it's good just to deal with some mundane aspects for a few minutes at a time because it lends to the realism of being in that world. However, when time is very precious and you only have two hours to play, then I would only devote to a few sentences of flavor text and that's it.

I personally wouldn't deal with these except just creating flavor text to be read and that's it. However, if my players want to stop somewhere and haggle for a few minutes with the local merchant, I won't mind so long as it doesn't get out of hand.

 

[the Jester]

The problem with the guards at the gate quote lies in its absolute nature. It implies that a game session where nothing happens is somehow not fun. For some groups this is true; for others, a session without anything other than roleplaying, a session with no combat, no dice rolling, no treasure gained, can be the be-all and end-all of fun.

 

[Bullgrit]

Long treks through endless corridors in the ancient dwarven stronghold beneath the mountains aren’t fun. Move the PCs quickly from encounter to encounter, and on to the fun!

Without knowing the full context of this quote, to me it's not saying dungeon crawls are not fun. It's saying traveling down that 10-mile long corridor deep into the mountain *with nothing there but the continuing corridor* is not fun.

I had a DM who would mention every freakin' 10 feet of the passages we went down. "You go 10 feet, 20 feet, 30 feet, 40 feet, then you come to a cross-corridor," with a little pause after each. He always did this, sometimes for a 100 feet of nothing but continuing tunnel. One time he was doing it and we were all tired of it, so after he said, "40 feet, 50 feet," we interrupted him and told him to just tell us how far we go till we come to something.

"Oh, okay," he said. "You walk down the tunnel for two hours, and then you come to the cave mouth overlooking a cliff."

<facepalm>

We turned around and trekked the two hour hike back to the dungeon.

Bullgrit

 

[ExploderWizard]

Without knowing the full context of this quote, to me it's not saying dungeon crawls are not fun. It's saying traveling down that 10-mile long corridor deep into the mountain *with nothing there but the continuing corridor* is not fun.

I had a DM who would mention every freakin' 10 feet of the passages we went down. "You go 10 feet, 20 feet, 30 feet, 40 feet, then you come to a cross-corridor," with a little pause after each. He always did this, sometimes for a 100 feet of nothing but continuing tunnel. One time he was doing it and we were all tired of it, so after he said, "40 feet, 50 feet," we interrupted him and told him to just tell us how far we go till we come to something.

"Oh, okay," he said. "You walk down the tunnel for two hours, and then you come to the cave mouth overlooking a cliff."

<facepalm>

We turned around and trekked the two hour hike back to the dungeon.

Bullgrit

Cross corridors are decision points. You would rather that they be glossed over?

The every 10 feet of straight corridor is a bit much. Describing what lies ahead depending on how far you can see should be enough. Perhaps the pauses were there to give the players an opportunity to stop, search, or whatever?

 

[JamesonCourage]

The problem with the guards at the gate quote lies in its absolute nature. It implies that a game session where nothing happens is somehow not fun. For some groups this is true; for others, a session without anything other than roleplaying, a session with no combat, no dice rolling, no treasure gained, can be the be-all and end-all of fun.

This is pretty true. It doesn't need to dominate in my group or anything, but occasionally it's nice.

At one point, the party had been beaten down, separated, and retreated across the continent and reformed. This took the place over about four sessions. Eventually after hiding out and later being ambushed (and nearly party wiped), the master magician of one of the PCs arrived (relief filled the players), and we ended the session.

The next session, he paid for ship passage back home. Along the way, the PCs just hung out and had some fun. The apprentice magician PC used an invisibility-type spell to watch the ocean water from inside the ship. Later, three of the PCs ganged up on the nerdy sage PC, messing around with him until his hammock broke (he was already a little seasick). The master magician wasn't pleased, and gave them a quick lecture (he had to pay for the damage they caused).

When the PCs arrived at the first big port city, however, he pulled them off to the side, and gave them each some coin. He told them to go make trouble. They were a little confused by this. The master magician, a little over 60 years old, reminded that that while they were servants of the prince, they were still shy of 20 years old themselves. He told them that while he had responsibilities, men of their age should be going out and experiencing life; drinking ale, meeting women (and running from their fathers), and breaking hammocks.

The party definitely took him up on his advice. The session was spent nearly entirely in town (with the shorter part of it making some innocent trouble on the ship). The PCs went out and talked with PCs, stole a few small things, tricked shopkeeps, met women, and saw the sights the town had to offer. It is fondly looked after by those who took part in it (especially by the magician apprentice's player, who connected least with characters out of that group). The session ended with them leaving town, and the next session continued with them arriving back to the castle, continuing their duties as the prince's servants.

So, a "tl;dr" version might be something like: "Yeah, it's nice to have a session every once in a while where things are nice, simple, and mundane. Not every session needs to be that way; in fact, no session needs to be that way. However, it's very nice to have moments like this now and again. The mundane can really help cement the campaign."

Anyways, just a story I thought I'd share. Didn't mean to take up too much of your time (to whoever does read this). As always, play what you like

 

[Aberzanzorax]

Without knowing the full context of this quote, to me it's not saying dungeon crawls are not fun. It's saying traveling down that 10-mile long corridor deep into the mountain *with nothing there but the continuing corridor* is not fun.

I had a DM who would mention every freakin' 10 feet of the passages we went down. "You go 10 feet, 20 feet, 30 feet, 40 feet, then you come to a cross-corridor," with a little pause after each. He always did this, sometimes for a 100 feet of nothing but continuing tunnel. One time he was doing it and we were all tired of it, so after he said, "40 feet, 50 feet," we interrupted him and told him to just tell us how far we go till we come to something.

"Oh, okay," he said. "You walk down the tunnel for two hours, and then you come to the cave mouth overlooking a cliff."

<facepalm>

We turned around and trekked the two hour hike back to the dungeon.

Bullgrit

Wow that sucks. What a horrible DM.


However, I don't think your point is a strong one. This is like taking "encounters with dragons aren't fun" to mean that every time you have an encounter, it will be a dragon, and only a dragon, and you'll have 10 of them per day, every day.


OF COURSE taking any element to an extreme isn't fun. Monty Haul campaigns can grow tiresome (but you don't hear people saying treasure isn't fun). Super high difficulty, all the time, campaigns aren't very fun for your average group (though for your hardcore group, maybe). Superr low difficulty, all the time, campaigns aren't very fun for most groups (maybe for a group that primarily gets together to socialize).


But he didn't say "extreme elements aren't fun because things need to be done in moderation". In fact, the quote seems to suggest the opposite (that we need MORE ENCOUNTERS and less of everything else). It suggests a style of "GET TO THE ENCOUNTER!!! GET TO THE FUN!"


The retort to "Long treks through endless corridors in the ancient dwarven stronghold beneath the mountains aren’t fun." is "Yeah, I agree, because a two hour long journey done in 10' increments wasn't fun."?

If so, then "combat encounters aren't fun." Because combat, combat, combat, combat, combat, combat, combat, combat, combat, combat, rest, combat, combat, combat, combat, combat. Isn't fun.


As has been stated, it's the extremity of the statement, but beyond that, it's ignoring a more exploratory (some might say sandboxy) style of play that D&D has always done quite well. There is no reason 4e can't do this just as well as any other edition, but the quote posits that this isn't the right way to play.


Also, experienced dms will give the advice that "empty rooms matter." This is more than just empty rooms, it includes an attack from lvl 1 brigands when the players are lvl 10, or a moment describing the music playing in the bar to set atmosphere, or perhaps even a 2 hour journey into a mountain tunnel (where there is maybe 5 minutes of description of the incredible depth to which they've travelled, the lack of light, the feelings of heaviness above them, etc.

 

[LurkAway]

"Whoa, that is NOT true! I AM fun. I can do a song and dance, I can tell jokes, and I throw great dinner parties."