The Guards at the Gate Quote

With Wyatt declaring what the definition of "fun" is for 4E D&D and how the game should be played. Is that alone enough for someone to be turned off by the system and write the entire thing off as something they'd just as soon not be bothered with?

No lengthy explanations (there have been enough of those in this thread), just YES or NO.

Yes. (The question being whether it's enough for "someone". There are many someones, and someone would probably walk away from 4e for this reason.)

No, if you're asking whether MY opinion of 4e is changed by this quote. For me, it's part of a pattern of perceived "disrespect" for the traditions of the game and for Old School players that's part of why I don't like 4e. This quote would be about 0.00001% of why I don't like it. :)
 

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I am NOT a minion. I'm Old School, before Wyatt invented freaking minions!

LOL. Skill 8 Stamina 7, as I recall. :cool:
 

I don't think he meant it to be offensive to anybody, let alone people who value things he said were unfun. So saying he "meant what he said" has to be constrained to what he actually intended, rather than what offense the reader took.

With the "dwarven fortress" example, he appeared to me to have in mind the Moria sequence in Lord of the Rings. He's saying it was Not Fun until the Orcs appeared. Some may well agree, but it seems a strangely controversial statement to put in a DMG. Gygax didn't have any similar proscriptive statements on content that I can recall - he warned against Monty Haul and against Killer Dungeons, but nothing about certain sorts of adventure being Not Fun to play.
 
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4E might have turned out to be the Best Game Ever, but Wyatt, in the DMG on the section on fun, made me dislike the game immensely. Gate guards aren't fun? Resource management isn't fun? Dungeon exploration isn't fun? Encounters are the only fun, and they are really only fun when there are lots of die rolls (usually to hit rolls)?

You know what's not fun? 4E, as described by James Wyatt.

You know, the reason I never played online D&D is that someone showed me the game. Seeing that you healed for "just standing around" and could carry as many swords as you want, I realized the MMO version had removed resource management from the game. That just seemed totally wrong to me, so I didn't want to play.

The limited resource management in 4e (endless Magic Missiles and nearly endless self-powered heals) does annoy me and just feel "off", but I never quite realized that was my issue with those rules.

I really DO enjoy resource management in the earlier versions of the game, particularly 3.5e, where there are few more spells (stat bonus) than in earlier editions, but magic is still a strictly limited resource.

Of course, I never worried about the '15 minute adventuring day' syndrome that 4e was so adamant about curing. (In 4e, we do two encounters and call it a day. In earlier editions, we did as many as needed to, or until we felt pretty low on spells (especially healing) and HP's.)
 

With Wyatt declaring what the definition of "fun" is for 4E D&D and how the game should be played. Is that alone enough for someone to be turned off by the system and write the entire thing off as something they'd just as soon not be bothered with?

No lengthy explanations (there have been enough of those in this thread), just YES or NO.

It didn't utimately stop me playing 4e, no.
 

With the "dwarven fortress" example, he appeared to me to have in mind the Moria sequence in Lord of the Rings. He's saying it was Not Fun until the Orcs appeared. Some may well agree, but it seems a strangely controversial statement to put in a DMG. Gygax didn't have any similar proscriptive statements on content that I can recall - he warned against Monty Haul and against Killer Dungeons, but nothing about certain adventurers being Not Fun to play.

I would regard the Moria sequence as precisely supporting his case. Take the movie version, for example, and count the minutes between the doorway and the appearance of the monsters. Then count the minutes spent on the monsters. Then compare that to the amount of "real" time each activity would have taken.

The walking through Moria would be highly compressed, shifting hours into a few minutes, while the fight scene would be uncompressed or even stretched out.

Rigorous editing, with just enough of the first part to get the point across. Skipping the boring stuff while spending time on the good stuff.
 

ShinHakkaider said:
No lengthy explanations (there have been enough of those in this thread), just YES or NO.

Yes.

Because, really, any reason is enough to dismiss 4e, even if it makes no sense.

Because, really, 4e isn't something anyone HAS to do. :)
 

I would regard the Moria sequence as precisely supporting his case. Take the movie version, for example, and count the minutes between the doorway and the appearance of the monsters. Then count the minutes spent on the monsters. Then compare that to the amount of "real" time each activity would have taken.

The walking through Moria would be highly compressed, shifting hours into a few minutes, while the fight scene would be uncompressed or even stretched out.

Rigorous editing, with just enough of the first part to get the point across. Skipping the boring stuff while spending time on the good stuff.

Well, I was thinking of the book. I think Peter Jackson probably agrees with Wyatt. :p
 

With Wyatt declaring what the definition of "fun" is for 4E D&D and how the game should be played. Is that alone enough for someone to be turned off by the system and write the entire thing off as something they'd just as soon not be bothered with?

The issue is that Wyatt didn't declare a definition of "fun". Fun is relative and personal, and if you look at the quote in question he is giving some example of things that he considers not "fun" within the context of everything that he has already discussed. If you take the quote into the context of the entire chapter and all the other things he's said in it you don't come about with "He's telling me that what I like is not fun."

When looking at the entirety of the book, and all the quotes that have to deal with "fun" you start to see that his quote has the meaning of don't bore your players. If something is boring to your players then move it along.

The entire chapter is called Adventures. He uses an incremental mode as he is going over all the information about creating and using adventures. In the section of Fixing Problems he specifically refers to fun again. In here he tells the DM to not have the players "hunting" for the fun, it's frustrating. When things start grinding to a halt, spice them up. In other words don't keep the players in the dark, give them the information that they need to keep moving along. He even specifically says "You don't need to use a combat encounter, but don't hesitate to spring some kind of unexpected occurrence on the characters." He is specifically telling the DM to keep the game moving. Nothing kills the mood of a session worse than boredom at the table. Encounters that are not significant/important to the players are boring.

In the section Building an Adventure he mentions to remember the motives that bring players to the table. And to use those to help everyone have more fun. He is referring to the things the players like and were discussed in the first chapter of the book, the Player Motivations in the section The Players. In the section about Good Structure he once again mentions the player hooks and motivations. Then he goes on to define the Challenges. Here he says that a good adventure provides varied challenges and that those challenges can emphasize attack, defense, skill use, problem solving, investigation and roleplaying. At no point does he say the only thing you can use are combat encounters. And in all this, he is continually saying to keep the motivations of the players as your guidepost.

On the section of Poor Structure he mentions to try to keep the action, the story and the pace moving. Don't keep the players clueless.

The next section is about Quests. Here he specifically mentions that the DM can also use Conflicting Quests that directly tie to the players/characters goals and that the freedom of choices here can present great opportunities for roleplaying and character development. Right below that it mentions that the DM should encourage the players to come up with their own quests tied to their individual goals. He uses the most ignored phase in this whole discussion, "Remember to say yes as often as possible!" The entire chapter, heck the book, is about creating an exciting experience for the players.

At the beginning of the section Encounter Mix, where the quote in question appears, he goes on again and elaborates that there should be variety in an adventure. Adventures should have both combat and non-combat encounters, and easy and difficult encounters. And that these encounters should have "situations that appeal to the player's different personalities and motivations. The variation creates an exciting rhythm." He is once again bringing the players to the game and their motivations as a basis for the excitement.

What he has been saying all along is to use interesting and exciting encounters for your players. When you take that into account the quote falls into its proper context.

"Fun is one element that shouldn't vary. Every encounter in an adventure should be fun. As much as possible, fast-forward through the parts of an adventure that aren't fun."

The italicized part there is what is being missed. With all the references he has already made to keeping the goals of the players in mind and their motivations, the variations of encounters, etc. He is simply saying if something is not significant, important, or of interest to the players, then move it along. Don't bore your players. Keep the game exciting, and keep it moving.
 
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But the ultimate end of this line of thinking is that no one can offer any advice because some group somewhere might find the advised-against behavior fun.

You should not run Monty Haul campaigns ... some groups enjoy getting tons of treasure.
You allow each character to shine ... some groups might like playing Superhero and henchman.
You should make sure characters are compatible ... some groups like infighting and group PvP.
You should have more than just combat encounters ... some groups might really enjoy just blasting through monsters.
You should make each enounter meaningful ... some groups like wandering around and shooting the breeze with Joe Random.
Give the PCs interesting, non-magic item rewards like land grants ... some groups hate anything that does not increase their characters' combat prowess.

To me it seems that when you are trying to teach someone to DM, you need to take a stand on some issues.

(To be fair, I used some snippage (feel free to click on the original quote for full info)....I want to respond to what I quoted.)


How about giving DMing advice about (part 1) assessing what your group likes and then (part 2) delivering it?

Don't tell ME what is "fun" and "not-fun"...help me develop a toolbox of DM abilities/skills/resources/motifs/etc.... and then give me info on how to gauge a given group (i.e. my group) so that I can THEN make it fun.



That's a helpful DMG paragraph/chapter....assess your group and cater to them.


The quote presented (and the above quote retorting the complaints in extremis) doesn't tell me what to do...and doesn't tell me what not to do well for specific groups.


The quotes tell me how to run a very generic game in shotgun style.

The quotes do NOT tell me how to tailor a game for a given group in a way they might enjoy it.

The quotes hint that maybe certain gaming styles are wrong, and never good for anyone (even if it might be the pinnacle of fun for them).
 

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