The HERO System

[buzz]

So to recap, in a nutshell, the essence of the argument so far, the point of it all, is this: HERO is a better system, right? That's what I hear you guys saying.

Better than what?

My position is simply that I heartily advocate HERO. It's in my Top 5 RPGs of all time (along with D&D3.x/d20). Whether it's better or worse than other systems is a matter of taste.

 

[drnuncheon]

So to recap, in a nutshell, the essence of the argument so far, the point of it all, is this: HERO is a better system, right? That's what I hear you guys saying.

Better? Nah. That's completely personal preference.

I just get bugged when people trash on a system and they aren't accurate.

J

 

[Rackhir]

I'm a little confused now.

So. ... Which system is best for superhero RPG?

(And hasn't there been a d20 adaptation of the Hero System?)

Relax, it's still Champions. What are you confused over by the way?

There are no D20 adaptations of Hero Games system, that I am aware of. A D20 adaptation of the Hero games system would pretty much be pointless, since there you are talking about systems that simply do not function the same way. Usually you get adaptations of worlds and game settings to the D20, at least that I am familiar with. The Champions universe is a fairly generic one, many of the villians are obvious pasteches of Familiar characters. So there is little that's unique to port over in that sense either.

 

[mmadsen]

First off I'd have to agree that you definitely suffered from a bad DM. Lets face it an inflexible DM who demands that you run YOUR character however THEY think it should be run will ruin any game. Not to mention that it sounds like he did a piss poor job of designing the character to follow the concept you had. So it's not exactly fair to blame all of that on the system.

First, it doesn't sound like the gamemaster was telling him how to run his character; the gamemaster was adjudicating the rules, by the book.

Second, although an experienced gamemaster could have designed a better Spidey clone, I think it is fair to blame the system -- not completely, but to a very large extent -- because that same gamemaster wouldn't have had those problems running another system.

 

[mmadsen]

Second, remember superheroes frequently don't spring full blown from the head of Zeus. Spiderman couldn't do everything you wanted the character to do right off the bat. He learned new ways and uses for his webs as time passed, improved the formula and created variations for specific circumstances. IE. he gained experience or in champions more power points and bought new powers/improvements on old ones.

I think you've successfully argued for a system where players can easily think up new uses for old powers, on the fly -- and then use them.

 

[mmadsen]

A good example is water breathing vs +1 to hit (both 5 pts in hero.) Should they be the same cost for a water deep fantasy vs a dark sun desert fantasy? of course not. Should they be the same cost for a Phoenix AZ based superhero game as a NYC based superhero game where an atleantean sub mariner plot will be a main storyline? Of course not.

Is there any system that solves that problem? I can't imagine anything short of a "market" for powers with free-floating prices solving that problem -- and I'm not sure what great prize we get when we do solve the problem.

Knowing the HERO point value of X does not mean it is easier to balance. It just means i have some number. Is that number useful?

It may or may not be useful. The linear pricing of stats and powers causes obvious problems. A low-power attack is almost worthless; a high-power attack is a tremendous bargain. The first few points of defense are worth every point; the more defense you already have, the less another point is worth.

Thus, two weak attacks combine for a tremendous waste of points -- until you introduce the multipower mechanic, which fixes things but adds quirky math. One gigantic attack is generally too good -- so we add an arbitrary hard limit on how powerful attacks can be.

Literal immunity to a narrowly defined attack is still infinitely expensive, so we expect players to only buy a "reasonable" of defense against that attack -- but it's still far more expensive than it's worth. If no one's ever going to hurt you badly enough with a fire attack to really hurt you, why bother paying to never, ever take even a single point of stun damage?

At any rate, I think many of these flaws are acceptible -- we don't have a better alternative -- but the false precision of the Hero system ignores the largely arbitrary nature of the numbers being crunched with such vigor.

Would Hero be an even better game if we took point values to two decimal places?

 

[drnuncheon]

I think you've successfully argued for a system where players can easily think up new uses for old powers, on the fly -- and then use them.

Generally, most (all that I've had experience with) HERO GMs will let you use a 'creative trick' if it makes sense. If you try to use it often (like spidey and his webbing), they make you pay for it (since it's becoming a standard ability of your character). If you use 'power stunts' all the time, they may even make you buy a VPP to represent it.

Gotta wonder how 'Webs' was bought, though, since one of the options on Entangle is 'opaque'. Makes it very easy to buy Spiderman's webs (and was probably the reason for it).

J

 

[Jhamin]

So to recap, in a nutshell, the essence of the argument so far, the point of it all, is this: HERO is a better system, right? That's what I hear you guys saying.

To recap, in a nutshell.

Some of us like hero so much that we go on long tirades about how great it is.

Some of us dislike hero to the point that we will go into long tirades about how overblown it is.

Hero is one of those systems that just plain works different than D20. It isn't a modification, or an improvement, or an imitator. It just plain works different. Some people love it's "break it down, then build the effect" philosophy. Others just want their magic missle spell. There will be eternal friction between these two camps.


To put it another way:

Have you ever heard:

-a couple of farmers debate International vs. Jon Deere?
-a couple of moterheads debate american vs. imports?
-a couple of computer nerds debate wintel vs. mac vs. linux?
-a couple of politicans debate republican vs. democrat?

A common theme is that either one will:
-plow your field
-let you take the highway to work
-let you recieve & print email
-cater to special interests


Both sides have their pros & cons. Both sides have people who feel passionatly that theirs is the one true way and the other guys just don't get it. That is what you are seeing here.

As for me, Hero is my system of choice. I do play other systems, but only if they convince me that their custom mechanics add enough to the experience for me not to use hero.
I do run a longstanding 3.0/3.5 game, because I was nostalgic when 3.0 came out and it does what I wanted very well. Now that we have reached moderate to high levels, if I had it all to do over I would seriously consider Fantasy Hero.
I have read M&M and Tri-stat. They have some very good points and I wouldn't mind playing them, but I love my Champions and don't see that they are as flexible while remaining consistant.

 

[mmadsen]

Hero is one of those systems that just plain works different than D20. It isn't a modification, or an improvement, or an imitator. It just plain works different. Some people love it's "break it down, then build the effect" philosophy. Others just want their magic missle spell. There will be eternal friction between these two camps.

I don't think anyone here has been arguing against Hero's "break it down, then build the effect" philosophy and clamoring for their magic missile spell instead. In fact, almost everyone agrees that Hero's effects-based power system is its strength -- as long as you don't define powers extremely narrowly.

My complaint, certainly, has been that it's a clumsy system, using too many numbers and too many mathematical operations for some fairly simple concepts (e.g., Con, Body, PD, ED, and Stun for toughness, with quirky die mechanics for damage rolls, etc.).

 

[Agback]

Gotta wonder how 'Webs' was bought, though, since one of the options on Entangle is 'opaque'. Makes it very easy to buy Spiderman's webs (and was probably the reason for it).

I'm sorry, but I don't remember. It must have been nearly (if not all of) twenty years since the incident, and I didn't undertand the gibberish on the character sheet at the time.

I have had better Champions and Hero System GMs since then. The story is only worth repeating because it illustrates the general proposition that the Hero System powers representation system is designed to describe game effects, and that you sometimes have to get pretty verbose (and expensive) to describe world effects using it. This is an important part of the Hero System experience.

Regards,


Agback