The HERO System

[Eosin the Red]

So to recap, in a nutshell, the essence of the argument so far, the point of it all, is this: HERO is a better system, right? That's what I hear you guys saying.

Don't forget them farmers! We made rude comments about them farmers.

Dig, dig, and more digs

Hey SW,

You know one hell of alot about Hero - not just Hero 5th but in general you know what is said when and where on the Hero Boards. You have spent a hundred + dollars on Hero supplements. You know your rules and even your Steven Long posts inside and out. Why do you devote so much time to something you obviously dislike? I don't like Palladium but I have never been over to their boards or entered a thread with the intent to spend a herculean amount of energy and effort to warn others from the system.

In places you sound more like a bitter lover who has found their spouce in bed with someone else. What gives? Surely, you don't hate the system that much after all you bought more than one book on it. You hung or still hang out on the Hero Boards. You even still have your books. Has the Hero team done something to personally offend you?

350 points is just as valid a metric as 10th level, both can be abused and used like a cheap street walker both can also be underpowered wimps. With experienced and nonabusive players in both games you are likely to be equal in terms of balance all things considered.

Attack Powers....not all attack powers are equal, especially at either end of the spectrum. 4d6 RKA/HKA is the most effective attack in the game and a highly advantaged 60 point EB is the weakest attack in the game. Generally speaking, attack powers between 60 and 90 AP should be close to equal - advantages and disadvantages not with standing. You should compare the actual attack power and not the final form [nor the real cost]. 12d6 EB is nearly as effective as 4d6 RKA and these are nearly as effective as 4d6 Major transform or any other power - BUT, once you start adding advantages and disadvantages the point to point value is no longer valid in terms of effectiveness [FREX A 6d6 EB, 0 END, No Range, Affects Desolid - sucks compared to 6d6 EB NND unless you happen to be fighting ghosts at long range an happen to be very tired.]. Those other tricks may come in handy every once in awhile but really are not worth it.

Is EB explosion worth it? I see people who like it, just like I see people who like No END but for me.....Nope, not worth it if I have a hard limit on my AP.

The whole point about the prehensile tail thing in some pretty ugly rules mangling. Quite a loop hole if you ask me and I would disallow the point break on the STR irrespective of what SL says on that....I am a Herophile but I fall way short of the glory of SWrushing when it comes to rules minutia so I don't know if that is actually what the errata says or not...I love hero but I am not obsessed enough to dig that deep. I will assume that your knowledge of Hero is probably superior to mine (I just run the game - I don't hang on each and every ruling on the Hero Boards like you seem to have done) but I will be happy to address specific issues that you have with the game. Although as mentioned, I suspect that you issues are not really with the game....dislike that deep is usually reserved for something personal.

The game favors people who like to crunch numbers, and that not being something I perticularly enjoy.

In this respect it is pretty similar to d20 - if you like to crunch and are willing to devote endless hours to it - then you too can reign in the Sultans of Smack. Those who crunch numbers will rule in any math based system be it d20, GURPs, Hero, or Storyteller.

 

[buzz]

There's lots of ways of having fun, it seems. And some people sure care about how good their way of having fun is.

As well as letting other people know, at length, why their way of having fun is wrong.

I thought it was just RPG.net, but I guess it's a universal law that any thread anywhere about HERO needs to devolve at some point into a system debate. :\

 

[Driddle]

I've just decided that GURPS Supers is the superior superhero game engine. The rest of you are full of bologna.

 

[mmadsen]

I just read WizarDru's Supers Recommendations: My Choice: M&M (in the d20 Modern, d20 System & OGL Games forum), and he gives a glowing review of M&M -- a well-written, glowing review.

His summary:

It's clear that they've learned from other games mistakes, and streamlined quite a bit. M&M feels like d20 pared down, mixed with Hero, acid-washed and then distilled down for speed. It addresses my major problem with Hero, namely number-crunching, but retains the wonderful customization possibilities that Hero provides, for the most part. I'll let you know if I find any further interesting tidbits.

 

[barsoomcore]

As well as letting other people know, at length, why their way of having fun is wrong.

I thought it was just RPG.net, but I guess it's a universal law that any thread anywhere about HERO needs to devolve at some point into a system debate. :\

Not so fast!

There exists no internet silliness so extreme that it can't be countered by judicious application of Mary Poppins:

There now. Doesn't everyone feel better?

 

[swrushing]

p. 112: "If the Extra Limbs cannot exercise the character's full STR or DEX, the character may take a -1/4 limitation on those Characteristics to reflect that fact."

So, your Brick 3a costs 16pts less, i.e. 189. I'm not sure what you mean by mentioning figured characteristics, as they are not affected by this. How did you come up with 234?

Ok so at least we are both using the rules!

As i mentioned in the original example, there are two costs, one lower than the 200-205 range and one higher, depending on a subjective GM choice.

Since my guess is we all agree that weak tail brick should point out, by common sense if nothing else, between 200 and 205, then either 16 pts low or 30 some points high are both pretty bad results. Its up to the Gm i guess to figure out whether charging 30 pts too much or saving 16 pts for no reasons is worse.

How did i get to the higher value as a possibility?

Strength and Dex are primary characteristics.
in the weak tail brick, we are applying, per the rule you cited, a -1/4 limitation to these primary characteristics.
HERo pg 92 tells us (second paragraph under "Characteristics") how to apply
limitations to primary characteristics and specifically about the figured characteristics.

last sentence reads "if the limitation does not limit the figured characteristics, then the limited primary characteristic does notadd to the figured characteristic..." They then give an example.

"Not usable by tail" (or however you want to name this lim) has no effect whatsoever on speed, stun, recovery, or endurance at all. If your game features hit locations (not the norm for supers games) then it might apply to the PD IF the tail has its own hit locations from a custom designed hit location chart. i am assuming not for this example, sticking with normal rules.

So, in our case, lets look at the strength. The tailless brick and full strength tail brick have 60 strength costing 50 and providing a free 12 PD, 12 of the 18 recovery, and 30 of the 60 stun.

The weak tail brick has 10 real strength and 50 strength with the limitation of "not for the tail" which means the strength only costs him 4- but it only provides him with 2 PD (not 12), 2 of the 18 recovery (not 12), and 5 stun (not 30). Buying back those lost figured characteristics (remember, all three bricks had the same PD, etc...) will run him 10 for the PD, 20 for the recovery and 30ish for the stun (or maybe it was 25 because i think i had sold back 5 stun but oh nevermind) ...

in short, because limiting his strength costs him the figured characteristics, he spends MORE to keep the same stats since he has to buy figured characteristics.

Then we repeat the process for speed figured from dex and find a few more points...

As i look at it, my math might be off, but its in the ballpark...

so the final rub is...

if the Gm uses the rules... then either...

weak tail will weigh in some 15 pts cheaper than the brick with identical stats but no tail at all (assumes Gm elects to not apply the page 90 limited primary characteristcs rule) and be able **by dint of adding a weak tail extra limb which the other guy does not have at all** buy say +3 to hit to "compensate" with his saved points...

or...

weak tail will weigh in about 25-35 pts more than the guy with the full strength tail.

Now, while Gms may differ on whether overcharging a character 30ish points is worse ot not worse than undercharging him 15ish... some Gms feel giving the player unwarranted points will create more balance problems than giving them too few... i prefer to just look at it and say... "its obvious to anyone who did not do the HERo math dance that weak tail should weigh in between strong tail and no tail, so both under by 15ish and over by 30ish are just plain wrong and silly."

In this case, doing the math did indeed as you have said "give us a number", two in fact, but neither was even close to being right.

 

[drnuncheon]

I've just decided that GURPS Supers is the superior superhero game engine. The rest of you are full of bologna.

GURPS Supers? You poor, poor bastard.

J
been there
has the scars

 

[Karl Green]

You are the first person I've ever seen to argue that HERO system is not suited to running Superheroes. I admire you for being able to type that with a straight face.

Then let me be the second person you hear it from

I like Hero ok for non-super stuff, but to me (and only IMO) Hero does not do supers well... at all in fact. It is to slow, to many figures that have nothing to do with the "comic" feel. At least not to me.

Again I like it for other stuff, just not supers...

 

[swrushing]

[/QUOTE]

I'd ask how they managed to buy a half die of EB, since you can't buy it in less than 1d6 for 5pts.

Sigh, that was me trying to stick to your chosen "45 pts". value. Anyway, in 4e at least, it was common enough and published in numerous examples to have a half dice Eb for 3 pts. I really did not take the time to look it up to see if they changed that for 5e. maybe 5e has gone more granular. maybe they found the ability to buy an attack between 4d6 and 5d6 to be unbalancing?

Anyway, the example would work much the same with 4d6 AOE 2" r vs 8d6 eb.

So this seems a little trivial.

I'd also ask them why they're deliberately choosing to put their main attack at the bottom of the Active Point range for a Standard superheroic campaign (i.e., it's 40-80) when you're putting the DEF/rDEF at the top (20/10). I'd ask the same of the 9d6 guy.

would the words "character concept" be OK?

besides... the 9d6 guy's attack WOULD BE EFFECTIVE at those values. Against the high end guys he still gets 11 stun thru per attack. Look at my for instance example...

As an example, say he spend shis 45 pts on 9d6 Eb and +3 OCV for a total of 60 pts vs the guy who buys 12d6 Eb.

Assume an opponent of average DCV and the 20 defense

12d6 boy needs a 11- to hit and does 22 stun thru on a hit. Thats gonna average about 14 stun per shot (missing 38% of the time.)

9d6 boy will hit on 14- (because of his three extra ocv) for about 11 making him about 10 stun per shot.

Sure, 9d6 boy has a little less stun against the big boys and 12d6 boy has more of a chance of getting a con stun but he has some better accuracy to help compensate.

besides, it not necessary in order to be worth your points that you build your characters to always be at the high end, right. The low end is listed at 8d6.

But really... the question i am asking is NOT about 45 pts of attack vs 60 pts of attack.

its about 45 pts of attack vs 45 pts of attack.

At the least, I'd say that he'd better save his attack for VIPER agents, on whom it should work pretty well.

basic viper agent has 10 def and DCV 5(HERO5 champions universe page 147 )

assuming shooting between 11m and 16m of the agents
assuming a cluster of three viper agents in a 3 hex wide area
assuming neither guy has range skill levels...
Assuming OCV of 8 for the good guysguys.

area guy shoots... hits the hex (DCV 5) and to avoid spread issues i am going to assume he hits automatically... his average damage is about 7 per viper guy... 21 total stun scores. The crowd goes wild.

firebolt guy shoots... needs a 12- to hit. he spreads to 6d6 to get shots at all three... each hit scores on average 11 stun thru defenses. he hits 75% of the time. thats an average of 8 stun thru per viper guy, ~ 25 per "shot at three".

So, against three viper guys in a cluster at "medium range", the 9d6 guy spreading does MORE DAMAGE than the area guy on average. If we move closer, to within 8m, the numbers go even more in favor of the 9d6 spread guy.

Again, at best, against clusters of threee Basic Viper agents, at normal distances, the 9d6 guy comes off as good or better than the area guy.

if you add this to "and against real supers with defenses above 10, the 9d6 guy will do much better as the area guy finds his attack becoming unable tp penetrate at all"...

i dont see the balance in effectiveness between those two attacks.

they are perhaps balanced against clusterred viper guys, but not against more typical supers... which means for the same points area guy will sometimes be on par but other times be much worse off than 9d6 guy.

is that what you call balanced?

More snarkiness. (Do you post as tetsujin over on RPG.net and the HERO boards?) Did HERO shoot your dog or something?

No.
No.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove at this point. That I'm somehow deluded and am not really having fun playing HERO? I've already basically answered your questions. Yes, I think the points generally come up balanced. Go ahead and think I'm an idiot if you want to. I'm still going to show up for my Friday night Champs game and have fun.

I am trying to challenge the assertions you make about the HERO system, more specifically about the relevence of the points to balance. I am using core rules, the point value your thru out, and SIMNPLE constructs (No NND, AOE only vs desolid faeires nonsense... just a firebolt vs fireball comparison... vanilla) to show its just not true that the points, rp cost in specific, will even for this simple case mean balance.

This is not really news. like i said, every so often on the HERo boards themselves someone asks about how to judge balance and IIRC no one (or almost no one) says "use total points." You are i think the first hero gamer to let his need to defend the system drive him that far down the road.

In short, in my experience, and using the standard numbers, the 9d6 vs 4.5d6 aoe example is a dead spot on example of hero math failing to produce a balanced set of powers. In any game with a moderate distribution of bad guys, the 9d6 blast will do more damage more often and drop foes faster than the 4.5 d6 aoe because of the gross loss in damage after defensesthe system 'charges" to get a small area of effect. Frankly, even the viper agent you tossed out still shows the 9d6 guy ahead of the game.

What i had hoped for was a slightly different outcome. i had hoped for maybe you to say something with a little more consideration than "well i still think its mostly balanced" et al...

For example, a more reasonable response IMo would have been...

"Well, yeah, this example of AOE on the low end of things with normal attacks is an issue. The 4.5 wont play out balanced unless the GM spends a lot of game time with his heroes beating up street thugs. But the AOE value is an approximation. In HERo the same AOE value can apply to drains and NNDs and flashes and a whole slew of other attacks which all beypass standard defenses. For these attacks, the big difference between 4.5 and 9d6 wont be exacerbated by significant defenses. So the AOE value is pretty much balanced along the lines for those attacks and it really doesn't work out as well for standard damage attacks, especially at the low end of the DC range. HERO tends when it errs to err on the side of caution. This may be one such case."

To me, something like the above, is a more informative than just "the points work, its balanced" rote defense. pretending the problems dont exist is not helping to propote the product.


In my experience, no PC in a game i have run or have been in has taken as his primary attack or sole attack an AOE attack of the standard attack type (Eb or RKA) with AOE at +1.

In my experience, plenty PCs in games i have run or have been in have take as their primary attack or sole attack a standard attack of the standard attack type (EB or RKA.) More than a few.

Effectiveness vs cost was a noticeable consideration in those cases. They all figured it out. i am surprised you did not.

 

[swrushing]

[/QUOTE]

Hey SW,

Hi.

You know one hell of alot about Hero - not just Hero 5th but in general you know what is said when and where on the Hero Boards. You have spent a hundred + dollars on Hero supplements. You know your rules and even your Steven Long posts inside and out.

thanks. i try and be informed before i speak... that helps when you get thiungs like the "you did not do it right" rules things we went thru a little while back from the munch fellow.

Why do you devote so much time to something you obviously dislike? I don't like Palladium but I have never been over to their boards or entered a thread with the intent to spend a herculean amount of energy and effort to warn others from the system.

In places you sound more like a bitter lover who has found their spouce in bed with someone else. What gives? Surely, you don't hate the system that much after all you bought more than one book on it. You hung or still hang out on the Hero Boards. You even still have your books. Has the Hero team done something to personally offend you?

nope. have never met them. While i havent had any interaction with the current guys, i did have published articles with the previous owners (old digital hero) and even have an editorial credit in a hero product (a GRG san angelo thing iirc.)

many of my posts on the hero boards are NOT bashing heor but normal posts about how to do within the system this or that and suggested rules and the like. i certainly dont shirk from criticizing it when i feel apropriate.

350 points is just as valid a metric as 10th level, both can be abused and used like a cheap street walker both can also be underpowered wimps. With experienced and nonabusive players in both games you are likely to be equal in terms of balance all things considered.

thats very broad. Like i said, a penny and a 20 dollar bill can both be called money.

there is a much large "balance gap" between 350 pts and 10th level between an inexperienced hero guy and an experienced hero guy than there is between the same in D20, or maybe DnD as i cannot speak to every thidr party d20 product. if you stick with core rules for both (HERO5 rulebook and PHB DMG for DND) to keep it simple, i think this is even more pronounced.


[UOTE=Eosin the Red]
Attack Powers....not all attack powers are equal, especially at either end of the spectrum. 4d6 RKA/HKA is the most effective attack in the game and a highly advantaged 60 point EB is the weakest attack in the game.
[/QUOTE]
Uh... i would have to say both of those are dubious statements at best. The value of the RKA is really dependent on the body levels and resistant defenses and style of the campaign. if the campaign features a moderate amount of agents, the rka will be killing some, or at least leaving them dieing, and will cause significant problems and a 12d6 eb will be just as effective at dropping them without killing.

the highly advantaged eb is actually one of the more abusive hero constructs. Its nicknamed "super baby powers" around here. take a 1-2 d6 Eb and advantage the sucker up to 60 ap with things which enable you to avoid primary defenses and you can have a real whammo thing.

They key is simple, the area advanatage is so expensive it makes any attack which goes against normal defenses less than worthwhile for its cost. So, an inexperienced guy might well buy a fireball and not realize he has just screwed himself.

An experienced guy however knows that multiple advantages stack well and so he will get the area attack but ALSO know to take another advantage to get around defenses, bypassing the whole "normal defense" issue.

For example, going back to my and buzz's 9d6 eb vs 4.5 d6 firebolt...
what if savvy joe bought instead a 3d6 NND AOE attack for also 45 pts.

exact same price as the other two.

But more...

3d6 nnd aoe is 3" radius... not 2" radius but 3" radius... that means 19 hexes not 7.

against some supers, those with the defenses, this attack would be of no use.
for sake of argument lets pick one of their common cases... force field.

against everyone else... bricks, viper agents, martial artists, etc... this attack hits everyone in a 3" radius, does about 10 stun thru and is practically an autohit.

now, when compared to the 4.5 d6 dude, this is, IMO, clearly very superior. Bigger area, more damage even against viper agents, and the ability to damage even supers of higher defense. heck, since force fields typically are visible, you will rarely be unaware of who is and who is not immune.

MOREOVER... odds are anyone with a force field is not a 10 defense total guy and the 4.5 d6 guy wont be getting any stun thru anyway.

Whwther its better to do 3d6 avoiding defenses or 9d6 before defenses is more iffy. it is at least as good in many cases. Against a low defense single bad guy scenario, the 9d6 wins and the 9d6 is a little more versatile.

Generally speaking, attack powers between 60 and 90 AP should be close to equal - advantages and disadvantages not with standing. You should compare the actual attack power and not the final form [nor the real cost]. 12d6 EB is nearly as effective as 4d6 RKA and these are nearly as effective as 4d6 Major transform or any other power - BUT, once you start adding advantages and disadvantages the point to point value is no longer valid in terms of effectiveness [FREX A 6d6 EB, 0 END, No Range, Affects Desolid - sucks compared to 6d6 EB NND unless you happen to be fighting ghosts at long range an happen to be very tired.]. Those other tricks may come in handy every once in awhile but really are not worth it.

In short, total points, real points, is not a good benchmark for power or effectiveness or balance.

I agree. Every experienced hero guy i have ever known agrees. Guys over at the hero boards agree.

buzz seems to be the lone holdout. go figure

Is EB explosion worth it? I see people who like it, just like I see people who like No END but for me.....Nope, not worth it if I have a hard limit on my AP.

The whole point about the prehensile tail thing in some pretty ugly rules mangling. Quite a loop hole if you ask me and I would disallow the point break on the STR irrespective of what SL says on that....I am a Herophile but I fall way short of the glory of SWrushing when it comes to rules minutia so I don't know if that is actually what the errata says or not...

it is the rules. no errata to change it. i tried. believe me, i tried.

its a simple issue hero has thats at fault. i call it "buy low, sell high".

it works like this... buying a cheap thing (extra limb in this case) enables you to put a small limit on a much much larger thing (characteristics in this case) and so adding a flawed little thing (weak extra tail) enables you to LOWER your overall cost. Now, in this particular case, the figured characteristics rule steps in if the Gm wants and crushes the whole thing to the other extreme, making it cost more. Both are just plain wrong.

you can get the same effect with partial coverage rules for bases where by making your base larger you can actually reduce the cost of the total base.

A correct rule would ALWAYS make the limit apply to the smaller item... so a weak tail SHOULD (but doesn't) reduce the extra lim cost and partial coverage should apply to the parts of the base that DONT have coverage.

but thats not the rule and was not accepted by long when questioned. his final answer was iirc "dont use our rules if you dont like them." or somesuch.

I love hero but I am not obsessed enough to dig that deep. I will assume that your knowledge of Hero is probably superior to mine (I just run the game - I don't hang on each and every ruling on the Hero Boards like you seem to have done) but I will be happy to address specific issues that you have with the game. Although as mentioned, I suspect that you issues are not really with the game....dislike that deep is usually reserved for something personal.

no, nothing personal. i am talking about the game. i find it a lot better than talking about me. sorry if that dissapoints.