The Hidden Rules

For me, I certainly recognize that there are going to be hidden patterns, but I don't much want to have to guess at what they are, nor make my players do so. I'll don't hide rules, though my players don't generally go seeking out rules, so its kind of a wash.

The thread brings up the importance of genre and theme. Everyone needs to be on the same page. When I run a game, I generally relate it to some movie or TV show or other source the players are likely to be familiar with. If I'm going to run a zombie game, there's a world of difference between Night of the Living Dead, Dawn of the Dead (remake), and Shawn of the Dead. Or Resident Evil. Or Zombieland. Each of those would have different assumptions, not just about zombies but about how the entire world worked, what is important, what ideas are good and what are bad.

IMO, the GM in the detective example was in the wrong. If I was told I was going to play an 80s style detective show, I wouldn't expect to be leaping off helicopters into a horde of bad guys, but I would be expecting to shoot out a door lock.
 

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With a 'closed' ruleset, I often fall into the game of "What does the DM/rule designer like?" Once I work out that the designer is a fan of say, Japanese weaponry, I stop thinking about using English broadswords.

Maybe we are talking past each other here, but how is that a problem of closed rulesets particularly? In an open rules set, you still tend to fall into a game of "What does the DM/rule designer like?" and, if the designer is a fan of Japanese weaponry, then you stop thinking about using English broadswords.

If the rules are narrow and your play goals little more than 'optimize my character for combat', you are getting highly constrained either way.

Another problem is once I have taken the risk to find a particular working solution, I am adverse to take a separate risk to test if a different tactic is also workable for a similar situation. I will continue to use a previously winning tactic unless it becomes obvious that the situation is sufficiently different enough to warrant a new set of risks.

I'm at a loss to see how that is a big problem. Isn't that how the real world works? In this case, it is the referee's responcibility to craft sufficiently interesting scenarios that new tactical options are presented to the player. So, maybe shoving an opponent doesn't seem as practical as trying to hit them with a sword, but wait a minute... we are standing right next to a pit. Maybe in this case attempting a push is worth it even if I don't know what the rules for pushing are and in particular even if such a stunt is not explicitly defined by the rules.

There are two traps here. If the proposition relates to a rule not explicitly defined, the player is conciously or unconsciously constrained both from thinking of the proposition and from attempting it. If the player doesn't know what rules are defined, they are much more likely to try to attempt a push than if they know that pushing isn't expressly covered. On the other hand, the DM has a responcibility to try to say 'Yes' here. If rules for pushing aren't expressly covered, he has a responcibility to smith rules for such a stunt on the fly. Of course, what the DM wants in this situation is a game system that is broad and flexible enough that coming up with a good rule for a case not in the system based on the system offers is easy, so that from the perspective of the player the player never knows or cares whether its a rule or a house rule being applied in this situation.

For me, roleplay is making decisions as the character would. Having the rules known means I can make those decisions more transparently and thus increase my character's chance of success.

Or not. All you really get knowing the rules is a more transparent and predictable outcome. It's not necessarily a more successful outcome than one you get from thinking out of the box.

Your bias in assuming 'predictable' = 'better chance of success' indicates to me that your stance is informed by having alot of creativity squashed with too much 'saying no'.

A closed system means I have two sets of worry: what should I do in this situation and how will the rules interpret my desire? With an open system, the second concern evaporates.

I think you are wrong. I think the second concern only seems to evaporate solely because you constrain yourself to only make propositions that are couched in the terms of the rules as you understand them. You self-limit yourself from any unpredictableness. You also end up unless you are careful in a highly antagonistic stance, because if what you desire from the game is predictablity, then you end up instead of making propositions to the DM, you make demands of the DM. That is, you instead of stating an intention, end up stating the desired result, and in my experience, players that state desired results instead of proposed actions get really angry when a) the results don't match their intended results and b) the DM is not willing to explain to them why the mysterious results have occured. Essentially, when you move from proposition to goal, you are demanding of the DM that he resolve a particular proposition in the way you expect and desire it to happen. That demand is inherently antagonistic.

That's more of an argument against games with arbitrary gamist artifacts than an open system.

All games have gamist artifacts, whether open or closed. Not knowing what those artifacts are can actually help avoid them.

Stepping into the pillar is certainly possible in a game of 5' squares, but often has a combat penalty (i.e. squeezing).

Why? You've still got 12' of open space behind you. Or, for that matter, if you put your back to the pillar, you've got 12' of open space in front of you. Interpretting the action as 'squeezing' is silly. Where we put the grid is entirely arbitrary. The grid can center anywhere. It's only a conveinent metagame device, and where it gets in the way it should be disposed of. Close systems do that much better than open systems.

1) It provides a reasonably congruent set of outcomes to common sense propositions inside the genre emulated .

I didn't feel the clarification was needed, but yes, obviously. Clearly, jumping out of a 7 story window has a different common sense expectation if you are a 'normal human', than if you are a 'super hero'. If we are explicitly trying to emulate the genera rules of a 'action hero movie', then certain things work by convention that are asking for trouble if the simulation is 'normal people in extraordinary situations'.

I think you missed one and that is a GM/player disconnect as to the game/genre expectations. If the players are playing a comedic superhero game but the GM expects a gritty superhero game, there will be trouble.

I believe it is the DM's job to communicate any misunderstanding about what is common sense regardless of genera or rules setting. There are all sorts of ways to do this, some of which simply involve providing the appropriate in game dressing of the setting so that it is recognizable as 'gritty' or 'comedic' or whatever.
 

Maybe we are talking past each other here, but how is that a problem of closed rulesets particularly? In an open rules set, you still tend to fall into a game of "What does the DM/rule designer like?" and, if the designer is a fan of Japanese weaponry, then you stop thinking about using English broadswords.

If the rules are narrow and your play goals little more than 'optimize my character for combat', you are getting highly constrained either way.

Because in an open game system, I can review my choice of English broadsword to understand what level of compromise is required to be non-optimal. In a closed system, I do not know the ramifications and am more likely to look for and stick with things that appear optimal.

I'm at a loss to see how that is a big problem. Isn't that how the real world works? In this case, it is the referee's responcibility to craft sufficiently interesting scenarios that new tactical options are presented to the player. So, maybe shoving an opponent doesn't seem as practical as trying to hit them with a sword, but wait a minute... we are standing right next to a pit. Maybe in this case attempting a push is worth it even if I don't know what the rules for pushing are and in particular even if such a stunt is not explicitly defined by the rules.

The biggest problem I've found with this is where the original tactic was successful by fluke. Because of the hidden nature, the improbability of the event is often overlooked and the same tactic is used with sub-par performance again and again.

There are two traps here. If the proposition relates to a rule not explicitly defined, the player is conciously or unconsciously constrained both from thinking of the proposition and from attempting it. If the player doesn't know what rules are defined, they are much more likely to try to attempt a push than if they know that pushing isn't expressly covered. On the other hand, the DM has a responcibility to try to say 'Yes' here. If rules for pushing aren't expressly covered, he has a responcibility to smith rules for such a stunt on the fly. Of course, what the DM wants in this situation is a game system that is broad and flexible enough that coming up with a good rule for a case not in the system based on the system offers is easy, so that from the perspective of the player the player never knows or cares whether its a rule or a house rule being applied in this situation.

With the exception of the player self-limiting to pre-built mechanics, the same applies to an open system.

Or not. All you really get knowing the rules is a more transparent and predictable outcome. It's not necessarily a more successful outcome than one you get from thinking out of the box.

Your bias in assuming 'predictable' = 'better chance of success' indicates to me that your stance is informed by having alot of creativity squashed with too much 'saying no'.

Not necessarily predictable, but at least where the ramifications are understood. I may still try the long-shot takeout, but at least it is an informed decision on my part.

I think you are wrong. I think the second concern only seems to evaporate solely because you constrain yourself to only make propositions that are couched in the terms of the rules as you understand them. You self-limit yourself from any unpredictableness. You also end up unless you are careful in a highly antagonistic stance, because if what you desire from the game is predictablity, then you end up instead of making propositions to the DM, you make demands of the DM. That is, you instead of stating an intention, end up stating the desired result, and in my experience, players that state desired results instead of proposed actions get really angry when a) the results don't match their intended results and b) the DM is not willing to explain to them why the mysterious results have occured. Essentially, when you move from proposition to goal, you are demanding of the DM that he resolve a particular proposition in the way you expect and desire it to happen. That demand is inherently antagonistic.

I don't require predictibilty so much as I appreciate understanding consequence. I don't state a desired result "I knock the gun out of his hand" I state my action "I try to knock the gun out of his hand". If the ruleset states there is a 95% chance of success, but there is a 25% chance the gun goes off anyway hitting the person it is pointed at, I may not want to accept that consequence. I may settle for the "I take the gun from him" which has a 50% of success and a 50% of shooting my character, but threatens no one else. It's all about informed decisions and understanding potential consequence.

The GM is not an antagonist; he is an adjudicator.

<snip>

Why? You've still got 12' of open space behind you. Or, for that matter, if you put your back to the pillar, you've got 12' of open space in front of you. Interpretting the action as 'squeezing' is silly. Where we put the grid is entirely arbitrary. The grid can center anywhere. It's only a conveinent metagame device, and where it gets in the way it should be disposed of. Close systems do that much better than open systems.

Because that's what the ruleset I was thinking of states. Other rulesets have different implications for sharing space. In many of those systems the implication is there is no impact on combat performance.

Once you start discarding the systems, it really doesn't matter if it was open or closed to begin with. I've never found more resistance from players when adjusting systems on the fly from open or hidden systems.


I didn't feel the clarification was needed, but yes, obviously. Clearly, jumping out of a 7 story window has a different common sense expectation if you are a 'normal human', than if you are a 'super hero'.

Genre has a lot more implication than that for me. A game simulating cinematic martial arts films like Feng Shui will adjudicate a move very differently than the same move in a gritty military game like Twilight 2000 with different probabilities and potential consequences even if the setting and base campaign world are the same.

It's immaterial the power level of the character. I specifically pointed out the consequence for a normal human for that reason.
 

I openly use "Rule 0," typically to streamline play. My group and I don't have all the rules memorize for 3.5, Pathfinder, SW Saga, etc - our shelves have too many books for any one person to keep track of everything. Situational houseruling solves that (For right now this does this, but we'll look it up later).

I also encourage my players to attempt crazy. It leads to a more cinimatic feel and fits my group. This may not work for others, depending on taist. I have been lucky with my group, in that all of the players are decent at focusing on the role they are playing.

On hidden rules, where I think it works is less with mechanics and more with plots. The "Bad Guys" operate with their own code or methods, and leaving the players to figure that out adds a level of intrigue. "Good Guys" have their own modius operendi as well. I think that is necessary for a dynamic world for the characters to interact in.
 

Interesting topic. I find this issue comes up a lot in situations where you don't know the GM very well, in a new game or at a con, but I still see it with some of my friends who GM after knowing them for a decade or more!

I tend to break it down like this: when you attempt an action, you're taking into account the rules set, the genre, and most importantly, how your GM views both of those things. I really prefer transparent rules sets or those with universal mechanics as a result...so I have a good idea what to expect when I want to try something.

I find that a lot of times in extremely rules light systems you end up "roleplaying the GM" to get your actions across, in that if what you want to do fits in with their worldview, you're golden...if not, it's just not going to happen.

In the last few years I've been strongly influenced by some indie games, namely The Shadow of Yesterday and Burning Wheel when I'm running my own games: I like to cut through the chatter of what's" realistic" or "in genre" or what have you by clearly setting the stakes and defining what success or failure mean before rolling the dice. It's helped me get away from a lot of conflict that I was having from the end of my 3x days.

My game of choice is 4E at the moment, and I found that once I started to say "what do you want to accomplish," followed by getting the player buy-in as far as the skill or other check we'd use to determine success, I got some very good roleplay out of both combat and non combat environments. It's to the point that when I ask people what they want to do, I get a chorus of "here's what I want, and here's how I think we should resolve it." That tends to make my group a lot happier with the results.
 

I really prefer transparent rules sets or those with universal mechanics as a result...so I have a good idea what to expect when I want to try something.

This is a good example of how it takes all kinds, and there is no perfect game system or technique for everyone.

The game you describe sounds like the sort that I wouldn't want to be in. Yet, it sounds like its what you want.

In the last few years I've been strongly influenced by some indie games, namely The Shadow of Yesterday and Burning Wheel when I'm running my own games...

Narrativist games where the players set the outcomes that are staked on the fortune are interesting, but they usually have various features designed to handle this in an interesting way and themes suited to the mechanic. I don't feel that they are suitable for everything.

: I like to cut through the chatter of what's" realistic" or "in genre"....I get a chorus of "here's what I want, and here's how I think we should resolve it."

It sounds like your solution to 'cutting the chatter' was to make it a regular and non-devisive part of the game. Personally, I couldn't stand that as an outcome either as a player or DM.

But, if it is what you have to do to settle the conflict, then I guess its what you have to do.

But I consider it interesting that I said that open rules sets led to players continually making demands on the DM as to the outcome and method of resolution, and your responce is basically, 'Well, that's a feature and not a bug'. It would drive me crazy. As a DM, I'd feel like the game would play better without me, and that I had no desire to be used as little more than a rubber stamp validating the players desires. As a player, I'd be frustrated at the amount of metagame talk masquerading as roleplay and the general slow pace necessitated by stopping to set stakes and reach a consensus at every point.
 

This is a good example of how it takes all kinds, and there is no perfect game system or technique for everyone.

The game you describe sounds like the sort that I wouldn't want to be in. Yet, it sounds like its what you want.
Very definitely: there's no one size fits all solution for roleplaying. Until the great roleplaying wars of 2018 that is.

[quote[Narrativist games where the players set the outcomes that are staked on the fortune are interesting, but they usually have various features designed to handle this in an interesting way and themes suited to the mechanic. I don't feel that they are suitable for everything.[/QUOTE]
Once again, I agree. What I've found them to do is keep the game moving and the players immersed, but that only works for a particular type of game. I play 4E, so this is not a style that it is especially known for, so I've found that it actually helps break out of some of the "5' step" problems the game is known for. Don't tell me about your powers or feats, tell me what you're trying to accomplish and we'll quickly figure out how to handle it. What the transparency does is let the players have a good idea of what they'll mechanically need to accomplish to make things happen.

Nothing breaks my immersion in a game faster than having to haggle over how to perform a task, and what can make it even worse is when the GM pulls a rules mechanism that makes something I think my character should be good at and have tried to build to be good at, unduly difficult.


It sounds like your solution to 'cutting the chatter' was to make it a regular and non-devisive part of the game. Personally, I couldn't stand that as an outcome either as a player or DM.

But, if it is what you have to do to settle the conflict, then I guess its what you have to do.

But I consider it interesting that I said that open rules sets led to players continually making demands on the DM as to the outcome and method of resolution, and your responce is basically, 'Well, that's a feature and not a bug'. It would drive me crazy. As a DM, I'd feel like the game would play better without me, and that I had no desire to be used as little more than a rubber stamp validating the players desires. As a player, I'd be frustrated at the amount of metagame talk masquerading as roleplay and the general slow pace necessitated by stopping to set stakes and reach a consensus at every point.
I'd say yes and no to you: I'm certainly not there to rubber stamp what the players want to do, but I also believe strongly in working with them to get the game that we want together, which includes a strong level of challenge and risk.

In my current game I started by asking the players to tell me what they wanted to do in purely descriptive terms, and then I'd come back and tell them what skill to role or what other mechanic to use. After a bit they started to figure out what I was going to ask for and roll that into the request. They also sometimes come back at me with a counterproposal to handle it differently, which I listen to and often accept.

The amount of metagaming that actually goes on is minimal, since the players have a good idea of what tool (usually a skill) to use in a particular situation.

I'd certainly say that this style of game isn't for everyone, but I also can't see myself going back to trying to figure out what mechanism a GM was going to use to determine whether I could do something or not.
 

Maybe I've just had too many antagonist GMs, or GMs inclined to say no, but my experiences with closed rulesets have been nothing but frustration, where I find myself unable to play the character I envision except as it meshes with the sort of character the GM seems to think I should be playing.

As an example, in non D&D or Superhero RPGs, my favorite character archetype to play, by far, is a manipulative "face". Politicians, con men, and just great liars, who trick others into doing what they want (think Ryan O'Reilly from Oz, Ben from Lost, or Littlefinger from A Song of Ice and Fire).

In an open rules system like White Wolf, I can create such a character and have a reasonable expectation that he will be able to manipulate others like I'd like him to. Now, certainly the Storyteller can draw up antagonists who will not be easily deceived, and when facing them my character will be in trouble. But when dealing with an average person, I can tell a lie, roll whole boatload of dice, and more often than not my lie will be believed. I can do the same with the hard-to-deceive antagonist, and while the chances of success are lower, they still exist. If I roll a few 10s, it pretty much doesn't matter who I'm talking to, they're buying it.

But in a system where I can't see the numbers or know the rules, this is not the case. When I tell a lie, whether or not it is believed is dependant either on the GM, or on some arbitrary ruleset which I have no way of knowing. In practice, I've found that my "master manipulator" characters often end up:

No better or worse at lying than I am (i.e. if I myself can effectively and convincingly lie, then the GM will let it work. But if he's not convinced, then whoever my character is lying to won't be either. Which, given that I'm NOT the world's greatest liar like I'd like my character to be, effectively means I can't play the character I want to play).

Only capable of deceiving those the GM thinks should be deceived, which rarely extends to include those antagonists or NPCs who are critical to the plot. In practice, I end up good at trivial manipulations, but with almost no chance to meaningfully influence the most important elements of the game. "You want to trick the dumb security guard? Sure. But no way you're tricking that Femme Fatale." In other words, if a DM intends that an NPC be intelligent, he is often unwilling to let me make that NPC look stupid.

Open systems take that, to an extent, out of the DMs hand. So that Femme Fatale is smart? Too bad. I just rolled 6 successes on my manipulate + subterfuge check, so she's buying what I'm selling, deal with it.

In practice, I find that open rules systems are much more likely to result in players being able to successfully deal with threats by playing their characters the way they want to play their characters, rather than solving problems in the manner that makes the most sense to the GM. Master assassins can shoot at anyone, even someone the GM doesn't want them to shoot, and with a good enough roll, their target is in trouble. Master manipulators can trick people, even if they were not initially introduced with the intention of being trickable. That world-class surgeon has a shot of saving that NPC on deaths door, even if the GM only intended that the NPC would give a dramatic speech and then croak. The abilities of characters become actual, potent traits that players can use to impose their will on the world, making a situation go the way they want it to go (provided the dice roll their way). In a closed ruleset, my capacity to impose my will on the world inevitably feels limited by the DMs willingness to let the world be imposed upon.
 

Interesting thread!

What does a player base his PC's decisions on when he knows that he doesn't have all the information?

It seems that the player will explore the game world to fill the gaps in his knowledge, especially if the game is about challenging the player.

What about metagame considerations? That information doesn't leave a player even if he's going through multiple PCs. It can be hard to forget that fire stops a troll from regenerating, or deciding when a new PC might put two and two together and come to this realization.

You could also metagame by reading the DM - "Joe doesn't believe in pacifism, so there's probably something up with those peaceful monks living in the middle of Demon Valley." But is that metagaming or making assumptions about the setting? Hmm...

What responsibilities does the DM have when running a game like that? It seems as though his rulings would have to be principled and consistent.
 

What I've discovered is that new players are often better role players than experienced ones. New players dig up childhood memories of playing house, cops and robbers, and whatever they role played as a child and they apply those skills. Veteren players tend to just try to use the rules.
You obviously never played cops and robbers as a kid.
"Bang, you're dead!"
"Am not, you missed!"
"Are so!"
"Am not!"
 

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