The Immortals Handbook

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Chosen01 mate!

Hi all, check out Kerrick's Legendary Spell Creation Rules

Very interesting stuff, the end result is similar to my own spell system; though the way you get there is notably different.

 

[Kavon]

Hi Kavon mate!

Hey U_K

You have to copy and paste the link to get it to work.

Ah! Ok, thanks

 

[Revenge of the Bjorn]

You know, I had this question way back in the begining but I'm pretty sure it never came up (or I never asked it). Where does the idea of gods obtaining power from worship come from? It has come up in other places like the PC game Black and White, or Neil Gaiman's American Gods but I don't see any mythological origin for the idea. The only idea that seems like a reasonable origin is the fact that often as cultures change or come in contact with other cultures, gods are formed, changed, replaced and so on, but it never seemed quite right to me that a game of mythic gods should have the cosmic "rules" based on human...err...psychology or history or anthropology or what is it here? So is that where the idea comes from or somewhere else? This thread needed resucetation anyway.....

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Bjorn mate!

Apologies for my sloth. First my computer was down for days, then (when I got things working again) I found ENWorld was as slow as ever (I couldn't post from yesterday afternoon onwards!).

You know, I had this question way back in the begining but I'm pretty sure it never came up (or I never asked it). Where does the idea of gods obtaining power from worship come from?

I don't know, it seems natural to me. Though in truth I got the idea from Simon, who set up the idea back in about 1988/89 when he created the Worship Point System.

I can't remember what initially inspired him. I'll ask him next time I see him online.

EDIT: Okay I just asked Simon and he says he just got the idea from the Experience Points table; simply applying it represent a sort of divine experience points which were then gained by worshippers.

It has come up in other places like the PC game Black and White, or Neil Gaiman's American Gods but I don't see any mythological origin for the idea.

Note that both of those ideas are fairly recent ones.

The only idea that seems like a reasonable origin is the fact that often as cultures change or come in contact with other cultures, gods are formed, changed, replaced and so on, but it never seemed quite right to me that a game of mythic gods should have the cosmic "rules" based on human...err...psychology or history or anthropology or what is it here? So is that where the idea comes from or somewhere else? This thread needed resucetation anyway.....

The idea that there is a connection when you devote yourself to (a) god is something I see working two ways (in RPGs) in that you have to give a part of yourself to get something back (eg. Granted spells, abilities).

 

[tauton_ikhnos]

I don't know, it seems natural to me.

It is

In most cultures, worship was done to benefit worshippers - most forms of worship are an attempt to close the distance to divinity, to connect with the godhead. Worship-as-energy-sacrifice comes from seeing the gods as "no better" than people, so ulterior motive must be present. Examples:
- ego boost: from having people bow and scrape
- energy investiture: some goes back to miracles, "investment growth"
- manpower: gods can do small miracles, but not achieve large scale "events"
- survival: gods only exist so long as they are believed in

None are new ideas, but only come up in cultures tolerant of heresy and/or very pragmatic. Latter Roman Empire had phrase do ut des ("I give that you may give"), which was said during sacrifices and making pacts with gods.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi tauton_ikhnos mate!

It is

In most cultures, worship was done to benefit worshippers - most forms of worship are an attempt to close the distance to divinity, to connect with the godhead. Worship-as-energy-sacrifice comes from seeing the gods as "no better" than people, so ulterior motive must be present. Examples:
- ego boost: from having people bow and scrape
- energy investiture: some goes back to miracles, "investment growth"
- manpower: gods can do small miracles, but not achieve large scale "events"
- survival: gods only exist so long as they are believed in

None are new ideas, but only come up in cultures tolerant of heresy and/or very pragmatic. Latter Roman Empire had phrase do ut des ("I give that you may give"), which was said during sacrifices and making pacts with gods.

Very interesting turn of phrase.

I was also thinking that there has to be some point to (living) 'sacrifices'; otherwise that makes less sense. The souls must feed something other than the priests egos.

I am not sure I agree with you last point (Survival), since that takes away their individuality. Although I see no reason why it couldn't be set up that way.

 

[tauton_ikhnos]

Survival just one example of many. Energy investiture is the main ulterior motive your system seems to use, but cultures have used all of those. Only real-world examples of survival-as-motive that I know of are all ancestor worship. Doesn't seem to take away individuality of ancestors.

I was also thinking that there has to be some point to (living) 'sacrifices'; otherwise that makes less sense. The souls must feed something other than the priests egos.

That is essentially the Aztec belief - the gods sacrificed their own blood to create world, so man had to reciprocate. They believed gods ate (most cultures do to some degree, hence sacrifice of food items), but ate only pure magic... of which most abundant source was human blood & human hearts. (though Quetzacouatl driven out in some stories because he was against human sacrifice).

My favorite reason for human sacrifice is as messenger: some cultures would sacrifice someone only in direst situation, to "send him to other side" to plead for his people in person.

 

[jessemock]

Where does the idea of gods obtaining power from worship come from?

Greece. Or rather, the way that Christian Greeks interpreted the decline of reverence for the Greek gods (and the effect that this had on the gods).

I came across this notion ages ago, in a book that actually pre-dated RPGs! I've been trying to find a link or quote, but I've been unsuccessful as yet.

My favorite reason for human sacrifice...

If only I knew or cared to know how to make sigs.

 

[The Serge]

Hello, U_K. It's been a while!

If you don't mind, please let your friends at Dicefreaks know when the pdfs are released. I know that quite a few of our members (among whom you're numbered) are eagerly anticipating the release of The Immortals Handbook.

If you don't mind, I'd like to post a link to this thread at Dicefreaks.

Later!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Survival just one example of many. Energy investiture is the main ulterior motive your system seems to use, but cultures have used all of those. Only real-world examples of survival-as-motive that I know of are all ancestor worship. Doesn't seem to take away individuality of ancestors.

If we indelibly link worship to survival then it takes away the gods individuality (since destroying a gods worshippers would destroy them without any say in the matter). This is still technically possible in my system if a worship points vacuum occurs but such a thing can only happen through PC negligence.

Having divinity require worship by necessity is wrong on a number of levels, the most obvious being that it alienates Demon Lords and the like.

That is essentially the Aztec belief - the gods sacrificed their own blood to create world, so man had to reciprocate. They believed gods ate (most cultures do to some degree, hence sacrifice of food items), but ate only pure magic... of which most abundant source was human blood & human hearts. (though Quetzacouatl driven out in some stories because he was against human sacrifice).

Funnily enough I have Tezcatlipoca as the head of the Aztec Pantheon...I wanted a Chaotic Evil example in there.

My favorite reason for human sacrifice is as messenger: some cultures would sacrifice someone only in direst situation, to "send him to other side" to plead for his people in person.

Thats an interesting viewpoint. I already have the mechanics of Sacrificial Magic done and the above idea would simply be a matter of semantics.