The Immortals Handbook

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RandallFlagg said:
Howdy Krust! :)

Hiya mate! :)

RandallFlagg said:
Appreciate the answers.

Anytime, you know that.

RandallFlagg said:
A Centaur lycanthrope....that's different. By that do you mean a Centaur with lycanthrope? Or like a human who becomes a centaur in the full moon...im assuming the former, but you know where assuming gets you...

The former.

RandallFlagg said:
Alright, I have a question for you not pertaining exactly to the book per se: We all know that Gods and similar power level beings use all kinds of agents to get the affairs done and do their fighting for them, such as human heros, proxies, celestial armies, demon/devil armies, etc, etc. But what could drive two beings of that kind of power into direct personal combat? What kind of situation would warrent them battling another God directly, especially when they have all the above and more at their desposal?

Thanks again dude! :)

Well, direct confrontations can occur between deities with a history of enmity usually when one of two things occurs.

1) One of the sides believes they have a distinct advantage over their enemy.
2) One of the sides believes their enemy is about to gain a distinct advantage.

As an example I will relate something that happened in our campaign.

In the aftermath of Doomstars initial show of force, the Babylonian deity Anu had been destroyed. This meant that in the largest Empire (on S'mons home brew world), the devil god Druaga (as the next most powerful religion in the empire) was about to gain a significant influx of power.

Not only would this shortly raise Druaga to Greater God (this was 1st Ed. remember, so no Intermediate status), but he would almost certainly set the Empire directly against the Kingdom of Thrinia - the greatest concentration of my characters worship.

I weighed up my options and decided I had to act. In previous skirmishes between the two deities, Druaga had always shown to have the slight edge over my character in combat*, I also knew he would have a number of devils with him, so I contacted a Solar ally I had helped in the past and convinced him to help.

*Note that this was a slightly tougher Druaga than the one in 1st Ed. D&Dg.

Anyway, we struck deep in the heart of the Great Fane of Druaga under the empires capital city. We couldn't teleport into the Great Fane because it was protected, so we had to start at the perimeter and work our way in. Initial resistance was obviously ill-prepared and ill-equipped to do anything more than die quickly, as we neared the great hall, resistance had peeled off. At the doors to the great hall I disintigrated the wall nearest the door just incase they had booby trapped the doors. We flew in and there was Druaga with pretty much all his High Priests, 20 Pit Fiends and 20 Ice Devils and numerous lesser guards and devils. The forces initially tried to swamp us. However Thrin was killing six or more pit fiends per round so they weren't going to last long. Multiple Dispel Magics hit Thrin and were absorbed by his Ioun Stone. Druaga entered the fray. Both gods were combat heavy deities (in fact after Surtur probably the two most powerful Lesser Deities in existence). So it was Thrin vs. Druaga (who also still had multiple Pit Fiends aiding him). Both of us had a full compliment of buffs/protections. It really came down to initiative and who got the critical hits in*. I anticipated I would kill Druaga in 9/12 hits and he would kill me in 6/8 hits (7 if I had been at full health, but occasionally the Pit fiends had sneaked a hit or two in). Both of us had double attacks for being hasted.

*In our 1st Ed. game a natural 18-20 signified a critical hit of some description (Natural 20 was double maximum).

As I recall Thrin shaded initiative, which meant he got 1/4 of his attacks first, then each in turn got 1/4 of their attacks. Thrin then proceeded to reduce Druagas number of limbs thanks to sharpness. Unfortunately Druaga had limbs enough to spare. I think Druaga scored a single critical hit to Thrins two.

The Solar (Al-Kamerion) had been destroyed by the remaining devils, but he had held them off long enough for Thrin to get the job done. Unfortunately some of the Pit Fiends folled his silver cord back to the Seven Heavens and permanently killed him.

Just as Thrin followed Druagas silver cord back (equivalent to an unseen teleport), Thrin had a 50% chance of being destroyed upon arrival.

However, the gods of luck were with me again and I successfully arrived to greet the helpless spirit of Druaga - who began to squeal like a pig for his very existence. Alas, to no avail. Thrin finished off the devil god, and returned to Asgard.

Thrin requested that Odin use Hlidskialf, the all-seeing throne to locate the reincarnated spirit of Druaga, before it reached maturity. Fortunately, Odin trumped Druaga and so we were able to find it and finish off the beast at long last.

Thrin then returned to the Great Fane and set about the remaining occupants with the proverbial 'pair of pliers and a blow torch'.

...okay I seem to have got distracted there, hope you all don't mind. :o
 

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Howdy Krust!

Yes, one is Time Lord and the other (though no great secret) will remain under wraps for now.

If the “other” template begins with a “D” then I think I know what you’re talking about. Otherwise, I’ll just have to do some scrying. ;)

Cheeky!

I could, but I am not going to.

Sounds like something one of my law professors would have said. :p

Suffice to say an Old One could take on a whole Pantheon...hows that.

(historian in background referring to v4 . . . . ) a ha! :cool:

Sounds interesting. I'll see if our library has it (or can get it) next time I am there.

A few weeks ago I got into an online argument about infinity and how it was an irrelevant and impractical concept. So it would be interesting to hear what Aczel has to say on the matter.

I found it quite interesting (history of infinity as it relates to math, philosophy, religion), and it ties into this ‘transfinite’ business I was referring to about a month ago. In sum, transfinite numbers are infinite, but are differentiated by degree, that is, some are larger than others.

Extrapolated to physical realities, the transfinite concept should allow for infinite universes that are contained within a larger multiverse, and so on. In rough and relative terms, this is not dissimilar to the EL relationship that you’ve developed. For example, a single being that constitutes an EL 100 encounter, while incredibly powerful would not be literally omnipotent, but should be able to tackle an infinite number of CR 500 beings.

Of course, Aczel reserves room (as did Cantor) for the “Absolute Infinite” which is categorically beyond even the largest transfinite. He equates this notion with, among other things, the Ein Sof, and it serves as an approximation of “real” omnipotence (which is not to say that everyone agrees on what this means - quite the contrary).

All in all, very interesting, but of little practical value for most.

BTW - I loved your campaign notes, Druaga sounded nasty. I hope to see him in the IH (along with Thrin and Doomstar).
 

historian said:
Howdy Krust!

Hi historian mate! :)

historian said:
If the “other” template begins with a “D” then I think I know what you’re talking about. Otherwise, I’ll just have to do some scrying. ;)

Nope...and don't be going through all the letters of the alphabet. :p

historian said:
I found it quite interesting (history of infinity as it relates to math, philosophy, religion), and it ties into this ‘transfinite’ business I was referring to about a month ago. In sum, transfinite numbers are infinite, but are differentiated by degree, that is, some are larger than others.

Extrapolated to physical realities, the transfinite concept should allow for infinite universes that are contained within a larger multiverse, and so on. In rough and relative terms, this is not dissimilar to the EL relationship that you’ve developed. For example, a single being that constitutes an EL 100 encounter, while incredibly powerful would not be literally omnipotent, but should be able to tackle an infinite number of CR 500 beings.

Of course, Aczel reserves room (as did Cantor) for the “Absolute Infinite” which is categorically beyond even the largest transfinite. He equates this notion with, among other things, the Ein Sof, and it serves as an approximation of “real” omnipotence (which is not to say that everyone agrees on what this means - quite the contrary).

All in all, very interesting, but of little practical value for most.

That was the sort of argument I was up against. Someone was (erroneously) trying to use the transfinite in a practical sense.

As I recall it was that in a line of numbers stretching to infinity, all the even numbers are still infinite, but at the same time less than infinity drawn from all numbers.

Of course I then challenged them to provide the 'cut off' point between something that was finite and infinite and they couldn't do it. Since under the auspices of their argument effectively everything becomes 'partially' infinite. So its useless for all practical representations.

historian said:
BTW - I loved your campaign notes, Druaga sounded nasty. I hope to see him in the IH (along with Thrin and Doomstar).

I'll try and squeeze Druaga into the Bestiary section, hes one of my favourite villains. I'd have used him as one of the examples in the 1st pdf. however I also have Lucifer amongst those and I was trying to get one of each alignment from the main bunch*, so they would have conflicted.

*Obviously things like Time Lords are beyond alignment.

Thrin will be amongst the Iconics (one of each alignment again), which I may put in the Chronicle (4th pdf.)

Doomstar 'may' be in a special section of the Chronicle pdf. which covers some very deadly non-divine threats (I have some great entries planned for this - you will all love it). ;)

...Or I 'may' use him online in the Psionics based web-enhancement. Either way you'll definately get to see him.
 

Hey UK! :)

Yeah that would definately provoke a deity to attack another I would think. Nice campaign by the way. May I ask what your charecter was the god of?

Also, I take it that non-divine beings who can challenge gods and the like have powers that can compete with Salient abilities? And, can you give a few examples of such beings (they dont have to be from the IH)? Maybe beings like Kezef and Dendar from the Forgotten Realms? Or the Fenris Wolf? Midgard Serpent?

Thankful as always. :D
 

RandallFlagg said:

Hi RandallFlagg mate! :)

RandallFlagg said:
Yeah that would definately provoke a deity to attack another I would think. Nice campaign by the way.

Thanks. Its a pity we didn't keep campaign notes at the time.

RandallFlagg said:
May I ask what your charecter was the god of?

Thrin is the god of swordsmanship (he has War and Swords Portfolios)

RandallFlagg said:
Also, I take it that non-divine beings who can challenge gods and the like have powers that can compete with Salient abilities?

Yes, although they generally just come from the same list. ;)

RandallFlagg said:
And, can you give a few examples of such beings (they dont have to be from the IH)? Maybe beings like Kezef and Dendar from the Forgotten Realms? Or the Fenris Wolf? Midgard Serpent?

Kezef is really Garm right? I don't really know Dendar?

I'll have Fenris and Jormungand (among others) detailed in the Norse Pantheon section of the Immortals Index.

Fenris would be an Intermediate God equivalent, Jormungandr a Greater God equivalent.

Sleipnir would be a Legendary Horse with the Quasi-deity Template.

RandallFlagg said:
Thankful as always. :D

My pleasure.
 

Wow, what a profundity of posts; I should check this thread more often.

I have a few assorted questions. First, about names: Why are Old Ones named such? Is there any reason they're old beyond the general D&D association "older = more powerful"? Similarly, why are certain Eternals called Time Lords? Is there a reason all beings of that power level would be concerned with time, or that beings of more or less power would not have the desire or ability to influence it? (Characters who aren't yet even metamortals can influence time via spells like time stop; with all the levels of power in between the lowest of mortals and the Eternals, I'd expect the ability to influence time would continue to grow.)

It seems that the core of your work are the 10 major templates: Demideity, ..., Supernal. Why are these broken down into 4 'classes' (Immortal, Sidereal, Eternal, Supernal)? What's the difference between a really powerful Greater God and an unusually weak Old One? (That is, why is there a gulf between them?) Or is this just a way to simplify the presentation?

Are Time Lords the most powerful of all the Eternals, or are there more powerful types?
 

Upper_Krust said:
Kezef is really Garm right? I don't really know Dendar?

Kezef is more like Fenris/Fenrir than Garm...but that's splitting hairs, since both mythical hounds have been compared as being the same being. Kezef did, after all, bite off Tyr's hand when the other gods chained him (Kezef).

Dendar is the Night Serpent. She resides in the Crystal Spire (Kelemvor's realm), eating the nightmares of mortals. Once she has become completely full, she will burst forth onto the Material Plane, and eat the sun, either ushering in, or as a symptom of, the Year of Carnage (Doomsday).
 

historian said:
I found it quite interesting (history of infinity as it relates to math, philosophy, religion), and it ties into this ‘transfinite’ business I was referring to about a month ago. In sum, transfinite numbers are infinite, but are differentiated by degree, that is, some are larger than others.

In other words, any subset (such as 10%) of infinity is itself infinite, and can be larger or smaller than each other (such as 10% of infinity compared to 30%)...but still fundamentally lesser than the whole (that is, the 100%).
 
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This talk about infinities concerns me deeply... the idea that there are more integers than odd integers goes against everything I know about the various infinities (the alephs, the beths, and even the inverse "granulars" which I dispute).

U_K, have you thought about starting a new thread? I think that shorter threads encourage people unfamiliar with the IH to post, as the thread seems less daunting.
 

Greetings friends!

There has been some development in my taste in RPGs over the last months and I have primarily converted to White Wolf's Exalted. However, I will incorporate the WPS into my new campaign, I think, making divine abilities into "charm"trees. Do you think that could be done, UK?

Also, are you planning on writing up the Greek Pantheon? While I have become incined to using the Exalted as reference, I will be running a campaign taking place in ancient Greece, where the characters will be heroes aspiring to become as great as Hercules and such.


Alzrius said:
In other words, any subset (such as 10%) of infinity is itself infinite, and can be larger or smaller than each other (such as 10% of infinity compared to 30%)...but still fundamentally lesser than the whole (that is, the 100%).

Any subset of an infinite set need not be infinite itself. Also, any subest of an uncountably infinite set need not be uncountably infinite. Take for instance the subset Z (the integers) of R (the reals). Z is countably infinite while R is not. The subset {1,3,5} of Z is finite, while Z itself is not.

Also, it can be shown that Z is group isomorphic to nZ={...,mnZ,...,2nZ,nZ,0,nZ,2nZ,...,mnZ,...}, meaning that nZ and Z has the same number of elements. This also closely resembles the definition of infinity (that a proper subset of a set can have a one-to-one correspondence with the set itself). This also "proves" that 10% of "infinity" is indeed infinity but not some smaller "infinity."

Now, I am no master of set-theory, but I can provide some links to relevant pages:

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Infinity.html
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/TransfiniteNumber.html
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/OrdinalNumber.html
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Continuum.html
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/CardinalNumber.html
 

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