The Immortals Handbook

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Sledge matey!

I have a real problem with the idea of multispell being "simultaneous". I think that the implication that the caster is actually casting multiple spells simultaneously defeats the need for Quicken spell. If multispell is just simultaneous casting why even need Quickened for it. Why not let it affect normal spells? I think that if you want to keep it from becoming abusive (And I do have an epic character that has taken all 3 auto quickens and has just taken his first multispell.) there are better ways. Change the mechanic of teleport or something else so that it takes a moment to reorient. If hit and run is the real problem then fix that not multispell.

You might have a point.

Although I am wary of people exploiting that ability (in conjunction with the IH - it would be possible for even Demigods to be casting over 20 spells/round) overall.

My instinct tells me to kick Multispell up to Divine Ability but remove the quickened bit altogether.

Then just allow as many quickened spells to be cast as people want, with the caveat that EACH quickened spell in a round has a cumulative -4 level penalty.

 

[Impeesa]

Regarding your Toughness tweak: There is an Improved Toughness in Complete Warrior which gives +1 HP per HD (increases as you gain HD/levels). It can't be taken more than once, but stacks with all the various other toughness feats as usual. Do you think that would work better than replacing all versions of toughness outright?

--Impeesa--

 

[CRGreathouse]

Agreed. I may change the initial Fast Healing ability into a Divine Ability.

What about this idea.

Taking the Fast Healing Divine Ability gets you Fast Healing 1
Taking Improved Fast Healing* Cosmic (maybe?) Ability gets you Fast Healing = HD/Levels

That's absurdly expensive. Even if the epic feat is overly powerful (you said +2 was better than +3), paying a Divine Gift/SDA for 1 point of fast healing is crazy... and a Cosmic ability for more? Isn't that the cost of perpetual resurrection?

If this is a joke pulled over the wool of my Wisdom 6, OK you win. If you're serious then I'm really confused.

Its a little unclear what exactly you are after.

I have the Time Portfolio and I have various abilities from Divine upwards that have to do with time.

I suspect you will find what you are looking for in there.

That's all I was after -- confirmation that there are time-related abilities availible to those below Time Lords and above Greater Deities. Thanks!

 

[historian]

Hey Krust!

Although I am wary of people exploiting that ability (in conjunction with the IH - it would be possible for even Demigods to be casting over 20 spells/round) overall.

A distinct and dangerous possibility (quickened spell-like abilities and innate spells coupled with the 'automatic quicken' feat could make this a real problem).

While I like the 'quickened' and 'multispell' feats because they distinguish 17-20th level mages from 27th to 30th level mages (above and beyond higher spell DCs and better spell penetration, these feats allow the higher level mages to blast away foes in far less time - i.e. a frost giant in 1 round as opposed to 3), I don't like the idea of 1st through 9th level spells becoming a deity's preferred method of attack because of quantity (of course, for substantially stronger beings there is little danger in this, as I don't imagine it would be possible to simulate the effects of most transcendent or omnific abilities through any combination of non-epic spells). As higher level beings creep closer to the fundamental forces of the cosmos, they should be less and less inclined to opt for "standard" magic (which will seem more and more like parlor trickery) in favor of their emerging abilities.

If this is a joke pulled over the wool of my Wisdom 6, OK you win. If you're serious then I'm really confused.

Don't sell yourself short CRGreathouse*, I had your wisdom much higher than that.

I'm seriously contemplating posting my stats (real world) in the hopes that U_K will use me as an iconic on the website.

*BTW - I'm not sure I understood your question re: the 'terminal' ability for the transcendent class. If it involves being "beyond" death then I have some ideas (drawing on an analogous situation in comic books). And don't worry, I'll post any comments on the thread specifically dealing with the class.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Impeesa matey!

Regarding your Toughness tweak: There is an Improved Toughness in Complete Warrior which gives +1 HP per HD (increases as you gain HD/levels). It can't be taken more than once, but stacks with all the various other toughness feats as usual. Do you think that would work better than replacing all versions of toughness outright?

I don't have the Complete Warrior and I wasn't aware of that feat. I don't see why they wouldn't let that feat stack?

Also as far as I know the Complete Warrior is not OGL right? So that feat is off limits to me.

My version would replace all the various toughness feats and stack with itself.

But if people want to use it, then thats up to them.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi CRGreathouse mate!

That's absurdly expensive. Even if the epic feat is overly powerful (you said +2 was better than +3), paying a Divine Gift/SDA for 1 point of fast healing is crazy... and a Cosmic ability for more? Isn't that the cost of perpetual resurrection?

If this is a joke pulled over the wool of my Wisdom 6, OK you win. If you're serious then I'm really confused.

I was just brainstorming out loud. I actually meant for the second Fast Healing ability to be Divine rather than Cosmic.

A few points of note.

- A cosmic ability converted into Fast Healing (epic feats) would bestow Fast Healing 60.

- WotC are themselves confused how to rate Fast Healing. Given that the Rapid Healing ring (in the ELH) costs 300,000 GP. That ring converts into a Divine Ability rather than a feat.

This difference is probably representative of that often talked about PC (with Fast Healing/Regen) vs. NPC/Monster (with Fast Healing/Regen).

So even though Fast Healing 3 (lets say) is underpowered for a Divine Ability it is more DM friendly, even if its not balanced vs. NPCs/Monsters.

The alternative may just be to make the Fast Healing = HD/Levels a Divine Ability and forget about a buffer FH ability and just use the ELH FH epic feat as a prereq.

That's all I was after -- confirmation that there are time-related abilities availible to those below Time Lords and above Greater Deities. Thanks!

 

[Drow Jones]

Multispell

My instinct tells me to kick Multispell up to Divine Ability but remove the quickened bit altogether.

Then just allow as many quickened spells to be cast as people want, with the caveat that EACH quickened spell in a round has a cumulative -4 level penalty.

Howdy UK,

IMHO, the changes to existing feats/epic feats should be minimal. The above suggestion is too different from the original and introduces a new number to keep track of (your current caster level). It's going to confuse some people and slow down combat.

Multispell does not have a cap in Epic HB, because the EHB is designed to support theoretically infinite character levels. As you have constructed more detailed rules of advancement, which build on and expand the epic abilites and feats, you can limit the scaling and stacking of the epic feats.

Limiting the times a character can take Multispell is a simple solution as it fixes your problem (the amount of spells per round), but does not introduce new rules or require a complete revision. You could cap Multispell so you can take it, for example, a maximum of 4 times. Then you can have a divine ability/feat with Multispell as a requirement, which raises the cap with +2 spells per round and so on.

- DJ

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Krust!

Hiya mate!

A distinct and dangerous possibility (quickened spell-like abilities and innate spells coupled with the 'automatic quicken' feat could make this a real problem).

While I like the 'quickened' and 'multispell' feats because they distinguish 17-20th level mages from 27th to 30th level mages (above and beyond higher spell DCs and better spell penetration, these feats allow the higher level mages to blast away foes in far less time - i.e. a frost giant in 1 round as opposed to 3), I don't like the idea of 1st through 9th level spells becoming a deity's preferred method of attack because of quantity (of course, for substantially stronger beings there is little danger in this, as I don't imagine it would be possible to simulate the effects of most transcendent or omnific abilities through any combination of non-epic spells). As higher level beings creep closer to the fundamental forces of the cosmos, they should be less and less inclined to opt for "standard" magic (which will seem more and more like parlor trickery) in favor of their emerging abilities.

I will probabaly leave multispell intact in the first pdf and then address it specifically when I have more time to go over the data in the second pdf (Grimoire/Magic).

Don't sell yourself short CRGreathouse*, I had your wisdom much higher than that.

I'm seriously contemplating posting my stats (real world) in the hopes that U_K will use me as an iconic on the website. .

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy UK,

Hi DJ!

IMHO, the changes to existing feats/epic feats should be minimal. The above suggestion is too different from the original and introduces a new number to keep track of (your current caster level). It's going to confuse some people and slow down combat.

I agree. I really want to keep any changes to a bare minimum.

I may leave everything except Toughness (to +1 hp/HD or Level) and Great Smiting (no longer stacks) untouched, and then if people spot gross abuses of the rules involving multispell (or anything else) then I can change that for the print version.

Multispell does not have a cap in Epic HB, because the EHB is designed to support theoretically infinite character levels. As you have constructed more detailed rules of advancement, which build on and expand the epic abilites and feats, you can limit the scaling and stacking of the epic feats.

Limiting the times a character can take Multispell is a simple solution as it fixes your problem (the amount of spells per round), but does not introduce new rules or require a complete revision. You could cap Multispell so you can take it, for example, a maximum of 4 times. Then you can have a divine ability/feat with Multispell as a requirement, which raises the cap with +2 spells per round and so on.

Well thats food for thought, though I'll really explore the possibilities of multispell better when I come to finish off the Grimoire section.

 

[CRGreathouse]

A distinct and dangerous possibility (quickened spell-like abilities and innate spells coupled with the 'automatic quicken' feat could make this a real problem).

For just the reasons you mention in your next paragraph, though, I like these feats and don't see them as a major issue with divine power -- presuming, of course, that no silly mistakes are made that would give them the ability to quicken all of their spell-like abilities or Alter Reality powers (which should stay standard actions).

Don't sell yourself short CRGreathouse*, I had your wisdom much higher than that.

Well, I have rated my Wisdom as high as 8 before; 7 is my cannonical answer, but when I got around to thinking about how common a 7 was I changed it.

Hey, at least my Int is good, right?

BTW - I'm not sure I understood your question re: the 'terminal' ability for the transcendent class. If it involves being "beyond" death then I have some ideas (drawing on an analogous situation in comic books). And don't worry, I'll post any comments on the thread specifically dealing with the class.

At this point, of course, I'm open to any suggestions. My question was about the 15th-level ability of the class: it should really be a great transcendence, a greater version of the monk's Perfect Self, but it just comes off as bland to me.

Any ideas, even those from comic books ( -- sorry, not a Krust-like fan), would be useful to me.