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General The Importance of Page 33

Rdm

Explorer
It's nonetheless a preference, and therefore subjective.
By that measure your opinion that they could fit well is just a subjective opinion, as under that standard ‘fit’ and ‘atmosphere’ is entirely subjective and you can’t have a conversation.
 

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Dire Bare

Legend
Supporter
Mystara may be a kitchen sink, but there's also something of a nostalgia angle here too. Many people who play it want to hearken back to their experiences with the old D&D game and stuff like dragonborn do not have the nostalgia angle. In fact, it might work against it. They might be happy with using the 5e rules for various reasons, but they don't want to use everything either and they're not so hardcore that they want to go back to Classic D&D or its retroclones.


I'm not sure why people can't simply accept that some players just have very different tastes. And forcing a DM to run a game that's not to his taste will result in a bad game. Though I would suspect any long term group generally shares similar tastes and a player going against that is either new or that one guy the group hasn't gotten around to booting yet.
The nostalgia angle I get, I'm not really sure there's any other reason to run a Mystara campaign. I started with Mystara when it was just a map in the Red Box, and grew up with the setting until TSR cancelled the product line. Despite its eccentricity and unevenness, I freaking love the setting.

But I'm not going to force my players into my nostalgia fest. And adding a few new races to the already eclectic mix isn't going to break my nostalgia and love for the setting.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
By that measure your opinion that they could fit well is just a subjective opinion, as under that standard ‘fit’ and ‘atmosphere’ is entirely subjective and you can’t have a conversation.
My opinion that a tabaxi would fit well into CoS is indeed subjective.

As for why I didn't respond to your previous assertion that anything that ruins the atmosphere for even one player is objectively bad, I technically already had. I said that it might or might not be a reasonable argument. Which, admittedly, isn't much of a response as it were, but we're already on a tangent to the thread topic and I'm not looking to derail the thread. That's a topic that could be a thread unto itself. I'm pretty sure I've seen that topic a few times, and not everyone agreed with the premise that it is bad, hence my response.

I think I've been pretty consistent. I'm not really clear why you're objecting so strenuously to the idea that tabaxi in Ravenloft are not objectively bad. They could be a bad fit for you and your group, and that's fine. People's preferences vary. That doesn't make it objectively bad though.
 

Orius

Adventurer
Exactly, but for some players newer stuff just turns them off completely. Just try having this discussion on Dragonsfoot to see what I mean. I'm not too bothered by adding newer stuff to Mystara myself, I even rationalized some potential approaches. For some people, maybe they didn't see how something could fit, while others simply want nothing to do with it at all.

For me, I do not want dragonborn in my games. I was open to the idea at first when it was announced for 4e, but then WotC got stupid with the dragonboobs, and that soured me completely. Even if they've moved beyond it, it does nothing but call to my mind to pandering to adolescent male sensibilities like the equally stupid chainmail bikini and it gets kicked to the curb.
 

Coroc

Hero
Huh, it's kinda funny. I played Curse of Strahd with an excellent DM a few years back. My ranger became a were-raven. And was part of a group that welcomed were-ravens.

I'm kinda wondering why a tabaxi or a dragonborn would be out of place in that setting.

But, hey, to each his own.
No one is startled by a raven!

(Unless he has seen to many Hitchcock movies)
 

Coroc

Hero
:ROFLMAO:
.... , but then WotC got stupid with the dragonboobs, .... stupid chainmail bikini and it gets kicked to the curb.
:LOL:

ROFLMAO "Put on your mailbra yo uare annoying the local townsfolk they come with torches and pitchforks, ah darn, it might not have been your dragonboobs at all which got them upset, I think it is more that you look like adangerous predator :p
 

Hussar

Legend
No one is startled by a raven!

(Unless he has seen to many Hitchcock movies)
Did I mention the hybrid form where I'm a 5 foot anthropomorphic raven? :D And the fact that there's an entire group of them in CoS? Never minding the freaking ANGEL hanging out in one of the nearby buildings. (sorry, don't want to spoiler too much) And the fact that the Mists kidnap all sorts of beings from the multiverse all the time, meaning that the folks in Barovia likely have seen all sorts of weird crap walking around.

This is, of course, ignoring the curse on Barovia where the population isn't exactly bog standard human anymore either.

But a walking lizard? Oh, man, that's too far. :erm:

Same goes for Mystara - Nostalgia feel? Sure, but, that's going to vary pretty wildly depending on when you played Mystara. One person's totally unbelievable addition is another person's first experience with the setting. I mean, take Diaboli. That's from the Poor Wizard's Almanac, 1992. That's a LONG way into the development of the setting. Yet, extra-dimensional travelers coming to settle in Mystara are perfectly fine, but, Tiefling's aren't? :erm: Methinks the Lady doth Protest too much.
 

FrozenNorth

Adventurer
So, I started a new campaign. I had a session zero where I explained the idea of an intrigue based campaign, with numerous factions and politicking. None of the players raised any issues with it, but when they arrived at the first session with their characters:
  • 1 was a noble distant heir to the throne involved in a plot against the current pretender (Cool!)
  • 1 was a doctor who patched up the poor and the wealthy (I can work with that!)
  • 1 was a lower-class member of a minority group with the flaw “when people treat me badly I fly into a rage” (Um, not really a great fit for an intrigue-based campaign, but I’m willing to work with this)
  • 1 was a wilderness warrior who had never been to the city (C’mon!)
  • the last was a steampunk elvish traveller from Sigil who had never been to that plane...

On the one hand, I retooled the campaign to be a more traditional dungeon delve. On the other, I told the steampunk elf to make a more appropriate character or drop the campaign (he dropped the campaign).

To summarize, I don’t think this issue is black or white. DMs should be flexible and avoid being too wedded to their ideas pre-player input. Players should engage with the world as described and not just play characters independent of the world.
 

clearstream

Be just and fear not...
I think I've learned a few different things in this thread. Some people are okay with any race in their campaign, others find it disrupts their suspension of disbelief. (The X axis.) Some people prioritise player choice, others prioritise DM choice. (The Y axis.) On that grid, I am top-right.

I don't perceive these as hard binaries: more what one leans toward.
 

clearstream

Be just and fear not...
Sure, but doctorbadwolf raises a good point: assuming both you and drbadwolf are both playing in the same campaign, why should your « talking animals are inherently silly » outweigh his « tabaxi are a interesting serious race and I have a cool concept for one ». Presumably, since it is his character, he is more invested in it than you should be.
Say the exchange is exactly that: A is okay with Tabaxi, B is not. And B is DM. How would you resolve that dilemma?
 


Nope, the argument stays stronger than ever. True gods can do both. But if they don't want something, nothing a mortal can do can change their mind. It is not a matter of "if they want", but a matter of "not wanting". Continuity stays on.
On the contrary - the argument is incredibly weak because true gods can do both. If you have an actual pantheon rather than a monotheistic setup your gods are going to have disagreements. You think Loki wouldn't invite other people in almost because the other Gods didn't want it?

And the argument that the Gods can do something therefore the world is that way is nothing more than DM fiat. If you're going to use that, at least be honest about it.
 


Orius

Adventurer
Tieflings in Mystara are something of a weird case.

They originated in Planescape, and in the 2e days, were more or less planar. Now Planescape and Mystara coexisted as supported 2e settings for 2 years, and Planescape counted Mystara as part of its cosmology. So a tiefling could theoretically cross from Planescape into Mystara. Mystara though had its own weird cosmology, but it was really only talked about in the old D&D rules. The D&D cosmology was similar with a Prime (Material) Plane, 4 elemental planes, an Astral and Ethereal. Outer Planes were much different, there was no Great Wheel, and they tended to be individual realms of the gods, connected to the Spheres, or alternate realities or something, I don't really remember. In any case, a traditional Mystara DM might use the old cosmology rather than the Great Wheel, and that might make tieflings a difficult fit at best. Not only that, but the DM might not like Planescape at all and not want to use it in his game. That was one of the big downsides to all of 2e's settings.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
Allowing tabaxi or not is a pretty binary choice though.
Possibly, but not necessarily.

For example, perhaps in the discussion it turns out that the player wants to be a tabaxi because they want their character to be highly athletic. So, after discussing it, you agree that they can play the stats but they look human (maybe sans claws).

You won't know unless you try.
 

Coroc

Hero
So, I started a new campaign. I had a session zero where I explained the idea of an intrigue based campaign, with numerous factions and politicking. None of the players raised any issues with it, but when they arrived at the first session with their characters:
  • 1 was a noble distant heir to the throne involved in a plot against the current pretender (Cool!)
  • 1 was a doctor who patched up the poor and the wealthy (I can work with that!)
  • 1 was a lower-class member of a minority group with the flaw “when people treat me badly I fly into a rage” (Um, not really a great fit for an intrigue-based campaign, but I’m willing to work with this)
  • 1 was a wilderness warrior who had never been to the city (C’mon!)
  • the last was a steampunk elvish traveller from Sigil who had never been to that plane...

On the one hand, I retooled the campaign to be a more traditional dungeon delve. On the other, I told the steampunk elf to make a more appropriate character or drop the campaign (he dropped the campaign).

To summarize, I don’t think this issue is black or white. DMs should be flexible and avoid being too wedded to their ideas pre-player input. Players should engage with the world as described and not just play characters independent of the world.
ROFL

Btw dear Burgomeister, this is Tarzan, I found it in the woods, please do not get upset by his table manners, in a few weeks I will have trained him not to eat food that fell to the floor. :p

Ah yes did I introduce to you Clueless my pointy eared friend ? :p
 

Coroc

Hero
Did I mention the hybrid form where I'm a 5 foot anthropomorphic raven? :D And the fact that there's an entire group of them in CoS? Never minding the freaking ANGEL hanging out in one of the nearby buildings. (sorry, don't want to spoiler too much) And the fact that the Mists kidnap all sorts of beings from the multiverse all the time, meaning that the folks in Barovia likely have seen all sorts of weird crap walking around.

This is, of course, ignoring the curse on Barovia where the population isn't exactly bog standard human anymore either.

But a walking lizard? Oh, man, that's too far. :erm:

Same goes for Mystara - Nostalgia feel? Sure, but, that's going to vary pretty wildly depending on when you played Mystara. One person's totally unbelievable addition is another person's first experience with the setting. I mean, take Diaboli. That's from the Poor Wizard's Almanac, 1992. That's a LONG way into the development of the setting. Yet, extra-dimensional travelers coming to settle in Mystara are perfectly fine, but, Tiefling's aren't? :erm: Methinks the Lady doth Protest too much.
Did not know about hybrid form with wereravens, but I guess you would not chose that as your standard shape, when entering the superstitious farming community in the hinterlands? If the change occurs unwillingly in that situation, then kudos, that is what Ravenloft is about.
But what will lizardman do to hide his face and tail? Wear a robe and a veil?
 

Rdm

Explorer
I wasn't the one quoted, but I would discuss the matter like adults, and try to find a mutually agreeable solution.
But see, if the position is existing vs not existing there really isn’t a mutual solution.
Possibly, but not necessarily.

For example, perhaps in the discussion it turns out that the player wants to be a tabaxi because they want their character to be highly athletic. So, after discussing it, you agree that they can play the stats but they look human (maybe sans claws).

You won't know unless you try.
then they defacto aren’t playing a Tabaxi but playing a human with different stats.
 

Evidence? For instance, I think the EarthSea setting would be weakened if the author had been made to throw in the kitchen-sink of fantasy and sci-fi races (for the sake of the example, all of them).
First I'm going to say that if you take the EarthSea setting and try to use the D&D magic system you've utterly savaged it. You've done more harm there than just about anything else could. D&D's magic system is basically consequence free and a big part of the point of EarthSea magic is that it isn't.

Second, given that EarthSea is about consequences for magic the really weird races are easy. Dragonborn, Shardminds, Tabaxi, and the rest are in extremely tiny numbers the result of magic and of getting it wrong with magic. And "That island right at the far end of the archaepelego has halflings. They mostly stay there, farming and living in holes in the ground." doesn't do much to disrupt the setting. Neither for that matter does "the elves live on an island 500 miles from any other island and people can't find it so it's just a legend."

D&D magic is core to a D&D game. Just about every character is going to interact with it and most (especially in 5e) are going to use it. Adding a small village of weird people a long way away for a PC to come from is something that seldom does.
 

Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
Possibly, but not necessarily.

For example, perhaps in the discussion it turns out that the player wants to be a tabaxi because they want their character to be highly athletic. So, after discussing it, you agree that they can play the stats but they look human (maybe sans claws).

You won't know unless you try.
Assuming that the DM is dead set against tabaxi (I would be, they just don't fit) then yes, I would talk to the person about what they want and why they want to play that race. The stats and personality traits could fit several other races.

But I've hit this with someone who wanted to play a drow. First of all, I'm a bit on the fence whether they even really exist in my campaign for a whole host of reasons. Second, if they do they represent the stealthy death and disappearance of entire families and villages in the dark of the night. My campaign world is dangerous, monsters are real. A drow would be shot on sight.

A player can always ask, but sometimes the answer is going to be "no".
 

Mythological Figures & Maleficent Monsters

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