The Keep Rule

[Aenghus]

In my 3e and 4e games I generally give the PCs opportunities to acquire property and responsibilties as they grow level, as it connects them better to the setting, gives them something to work with, and something to lose.

Some extra content to help with stronghold/estate management would be useful, but I wouldn't put it in the core rulebook, its the sort of content I would like to see in a later module.

 

[howandwhy99]

High level PCs don't need a stronghold. It's simply a safe and trustworthy place to keep your treasure. Plus, when you get so wealthy you're a walking economy (a.k.a. Lord), then people tend to congregate around you and settle where you settle. "Welcome to _____ville", Melfton, or Gord City.

 

[DonTadow]

I started playing with 2E. One of the rules I loved, and would like to see brought back in some form is the Keep Rule. In 2E, at 9th level characters got a keep and/or followers.

I always felt that this gave the players something to look forward to, to anchor them in the world, and to give them additional responsibilities. It really felt like the characters were "growing up" in a way that just increasing personal power didn't.

I think the rule also helped the fighter class the most. The other classes have a lot of non-combat mechanical hooks, like non-combat spells, the church structure, skills. But the fighter, especially in 3E and 4E doesn't really have any of that. I think the keep rule helped the fighter the most, implying that the fighter's destiny was to become a leader of men.

Now, you obviously don't need a formal rule to do stuff like this. But I thought having the formal rule gave it weight, it made responsibility for others to be an expected part of levelling up. Some of my group's best adventures came when establishing their keeps.

I would like to see this rule or idea brought back in 5E.

When a campaign was a city and a dungeon, it made sense to have this in the rules, but now that's a campign/dm thing. It's like bringing aquaman on every adventure. He's only needed in specific situations.

 

[ferratus]

I think if we are going to have the keep rule, it should follow these commandments:

1) Thou shall give each class its own type of followers. Fighters should have men at arms, a castellan, and an elite force. Rogues should have an ecletic cast of loveable rogues with a detailed personality. Rangers and Druids should have fey and monstrous allies amongst their followers. Wizards should have apprentices. Clerics should have the devotion of the common man.

3.x got it wrong. Each class has its own distinct flavour, so why give them all the same followers?

2) Thou shall allow the party to create a super-stronghold. If players really want their own space, I can respect that and that option should still exist in the game. But I would make the strongholds of each character logically fit together as components of one and have room for all their followers. A stronghold can have a barracks for the fighter, a chapel for the cleric, a tavern-hideout for the rogue, and a tower for the mage.

3) Thou shall give stronghold components a benefit to the character in the rest of the game. Don't make characters choose between supporting their stronghold and enhancing their personal power. Having a stronghold should enhance your personal power. If you have a tavern in your keep, you should gain secrets and intel from its rumours. If you have an armory or smithy, you should get better arms and armour. An alchemical lab should boost your potions (or make them more cheaply). I can go on forever, but there is no reason that the money spent on strongholds can't pay dividends in your adventuring career.

4) Thou shalt not fuss over the cost of a barbican. Really, just tell me in what range it would cost for a stronghold. If a small keep is worth 60,000 - 75,000 gp, that's all the information I need. Save the space for domain, guild, and temple rules.

 

[Wormwood]

My (second) 4e campaign just reached 9th level, and once again I gave the party authority over a castle (Tintagel in this case, Overlook in the previous game). 10th-level or so has *always* seemed to be a natural place for hand over real estate.

 

[LostSoul]

What I want is rules for keep management. Sure you can have story reasons for how you got it, but I want to know how to deal with the keep once you get it.

I use Reaction rolls (B/X expanded to 3d6 to make use of WotC stat modifiers) with a bunch of modifiers each month. One for how much they like you, one for how willing they are to follow your commands.

Seems to work.

 

[Hassassin]

Strongholds are probably best left to the storyline and out of the rules themselves.

That's like saying dragons should be left to the storyline and out of the rules. I don't think you meant that, though. I think there should be rules, just don't tie them to a particular level and everyone should be happy.

 

[Sanglorian]

That's like saying dragons should be left to the storyline and out of the rules. I don't think you meant that, though. I think there should be rules, just don't tie them to a particular level and everyone should be happy.

I think this is the answer. Have a mechanism for slowly developing a stronghold that players can engage with when (a) it fits the story and (b) they want to explore that side of the campaign.

I think the build-a-stronghold mechanic could work on the same lines as a rise-in-an-organisation and strike-up-a-rapport-with-an-artifact, as things that progress over several sessions, both in and out of play. My starting point would be the artifact rules in 4E, which I think could be applied to factions, strongholds, etc.

 

[Weregrognard]

If you clear out a derelict keep at level 1, can't you have it as your stronghold? If you never stay in one place for more than five minutes at level 20, should you have one at all?

That's not really how it worked. You could still "keep" the keep (heh), but you had to field your troops and staff out of your own pocket. What happened at "Name" level was that your charcter had built up enough of a reputation that if you built a keep, loyal followers would flock to your banner for free.

 

[avin]

So, when DMing I should stop the story at level 9 and give players a stronghold?

IMO that's horrible metagaming... it was horrible in 2E, will be horrible if implemented.