The Lance

[Hypersmurf]

Now, near as I can tell, anything wielded with two hands gets the 1.5 damage bonus (regardless whether it is a 'one handed weapon used two handed' or a 'two handed weapon').

Unless it's a light weapon, right.

Case in point is large creature using a medium two handed weapon.

Now, this weapon is still technically a medium two handed weapon (evidence: the -2 the critter gets for using the weapon). He's using a two handed weapon one handed.

No, he isn't. He's using a one-handed weapon one-handed.

I'll quote it again:
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.

The medium two-handed weapon is designated as a one-handed weapon for the particular wielder, when that wielder is large.

-Hyp.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

With all the rules that pertain to using a lance (greater damage on a charge, as well as feats specifically designed to improve such attacks), is the extra damage needed?

Yes, it is usually needed. In my experience, high-level fighters have high Str and can reliably Power Attack for a few on a charge. The abilities to boost lance damage on a charge (Spirited Charge, Deadly Charge, Unstoppable Charge) boost non-lance weapons as well. Spirited Charge gives +50% damage if using a lance, or +100% if using any other weapon. Deadly Charge is +33% vs. +50%.

Try a few examples with lance compared to a 2-handed weapon with Spirited Charge. Here's one:
Glaive, 18 Str, PA for 3, Spirited Charge: 2d10+24 (mean 35)
Lance (1x), 18 Str, PA for 3, Spirited Charge: 3d8+21 (mean 34.5)
Lance (1.5x): 3d8+30 (mean 43.5)

If lance is 1x, 2-handed weapons really pull ahead at high Str and high Power Attack. Although bonuses not dependent on 1-handed/2-handed (e.g. specialization, magic, Inspire Courage, favored enemy, smite) mitigate this and may bring the lance back into favor.

 

[Storyteller01]

The medium two-handed weapon is designated as a one-handed weapon for the particular wielder, when that wielder is large.

-Hyp.

Regardless of its current designation, it's a weapon designed to be used 2 hnded (with the equivalent balance, mass, yada yada) being used one handed, and only getting the one handed bonus damage.

If the human uses the great sword one handed (for whatever reason: magic, funky feats, whatever. Strange things happen. ), does he still get the 1.5 increase? IF so why? (and PLEASE don't say it's because the RAW says it's a two handed weapon... )

 

[Black Pharaoh]

this thread makes the brain baby kick

 

[Storyteller01]

Try a few examples with lance compared to a 2-handed weapon with Spirited Charge. Here's one:
Glaive, 18 Str, PA for 3, Spirited Charge: 2d10+24 (mean 35)
Lance (1x), 18 Str, PA for 3, Spirited Charge: 3d8+21 (mean 34.5)
Lance (1.5x): 3d8+30 (mean 43.5)

So we're debating RAW over RL mechanics because of NINE POINTS OF DAMAGE!?
*leaps out tall building window...*

Meh... Later folks. Nice debating with you. Enjoyed it throughly. See you all on another thread.

 

[billd91]

It lets you wield a weapon one size category larger than you without increasing its designation.

For example, a medium creature has a Large longsword. It's a one-handed weapon, but normally considered a two-handed weapon for a Medium creature. With Monkey Grip, it retains its normal designation as a one-handed weapon.

So you're using a one-handed weapon in one hand, which means 1x Str bonus and 1-for-1 Power Attack. No problem.

-Hyp.

Oh, no. There's definitely a problem. Thanks to the weapon equivalency table on page 27 of the DMG, that large longsword is equivalent to a medium greatsword. So now, you've got that character with Monkey Grip using a medium two-handed weapon as a medium one-handed weapon. But he doesn't get 1.5x the strength bonus with it does he?

I think the problem with holding too closely to the specific wording of the terminology as written is it ignores the spirit of the rules. That spirit is what's being invoked in the FAQ by an author who had a significant hand in the restructuring of the weapon sizing rules. You'd think he knew what he meant even if there are ambiguities that made their way into the RAW.

And I don't think you need 1.5x the strength bonus damage to make lances the prefered weapon for a cavalry charge. They already do double damage on a charge compared to any other weapon that does not. And with spirited charge, they do triple while others only do double. No further inducements needed, especially for regular NPC cavalry who are unlikely to have strength above 13 where the difference in damage bonuses begin to appear.

 

[glass]

If the human uses the great sword one handed (for whatever reason: magic, funky feats, whatever. Strange things happen. ), does he still get the 1.5 increase? IF so why? (and PLEASE don't say it's because the RAW says it's a two handed weapon... )

But it does say that, and it is a two handed weapon.

Or, do you mean, 'please don't say that because it torpedoes my entire argument'?


glass.

 

[Seeten]

Using a greatsword in one hand, and using the lance in one hand mounted on horseback are totally not the same thing. Greatsword gets its force from the strength of the wielder swinging it. Lance gets its force from the speed of the horse, and the aim of the rider. It is so not even equivalent its silly. Also, Greatswords dont have special text saying, "Can be used 1handed, like they always were in reality from horseback".

This argument is not even good sophistry, its just lame.

Lances get 1.5x str because A) Its RAW and B) its common sense, and C) the rules present special text saying so.

 

[mvincent]

It didn't need clarifying: the lance is a 2H weapon with one noted exception. The fact that you don't like the rules, or even the fact that whoever wrote that FAQ entry doesn't like the rule doesn't chnge the rules.

No, it did need clarifying. The description could have been (and was) interpretted either way. And as I've mentioned several times, I actually don't like the FAQ ruling on lances. I just don't see a conflict with the core rules.

But the fact that we don't like the FAQ clarification doesn't change it.

I will likely use the FAQ's clarification on this for other weapons, but not the lance.

 

[Ketjak]

Using a greatsword in one hand, and using the lance in one hand mounted on horseback are totally not the same thing. Greatsword gets its force from the strength of the wielder swinging it. Lance gets its force from the speed of the horse, and the aim of the rider. It is so not even equivalent its silly. Also, Greatswords dont have special text saying, "Can be used 1handed, like they always were in reality from horseback".

This argument is not even good sophistry, its just lame.

Lances get 1.5x str because A) Its RAW and B) its common sense, and C) the rules present special text saying so.

Eh. Drop common sense from that list.

Also, it's not clear where the damage bonus comes from. If I understand this correctly (and I'd like Hyp's interpretation) the RAW say a greatsword wielded in one hand by a character with Monkey Grip will do 2x Power Attack damage and receive 1.5x STR bonus. Here's why:

Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed: When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus. However, you don’t get this higher Strength bonus when using a light weapon with two hands.

Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.

If "such a weapon" means two-handed melee weapon (size), then the greatsword gets the full bonus whether wielded with one hand or not. If "such a weapon" means a two-handed melee weapon used with the required two hands, then the greatsword doesn't get the STR damage bonus. Confusing indeed, though I think a strict read is that two-handed weapons get it no matter how many hands are wielding the weapon. (Non-sequitur: in the latter case, the Power Attack wording is suspicious at best.)

Again, the problem lies in the words used to define the size weapon quality. It doesn't really get any easier to understand using "bare metal" size terms, either:

Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed: When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus. However, you don’t get this higher Strength bonus when using a Size 1 weapon with two hands.

Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a Size 3 melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.

"Such a weapon." Ugh.

Question: do the RAW include errata?

edit: bolded Size 1 & Size 3