The Magic-Walmart myth

[Doug McCrae]

Is Conan trying to get a particular magic item that he wants to meet a particular threat? Yup. Is trying to get it equal to boring old shopping? Nope. Is this a scenario that has played itself (or similar) out in hundreds of D&D games since Gygax first set pen to paper? Yup. Is it one that works well in a MagicMart world?

Well, maybe. But eventually someone's going to say, "Why is it we can buy any item we don't actually need, but when we really need something it's under the sleeping Tarrasque?

It's a macguffin. A unique item used for a specific purpose. I don't see any difficulty in having macguffins and +1 swords coexist, they're just different varieties of magic item. Our previous campaign used normal magic items alongside frequent macguffins and I didn't see any problems with having the two together.

Macguffins are vital in situation X and only situation X. Normal items, such as an amulet of health, are useful (though not essential) in many situations.

Personally I prefer normal items to macguffins. A macguffin means there's only one solution to a problem, which smacks of railroading. I regard them as lazy plotting when used in fiction (even though they occur in classics like The Lord Of The Rings and The Maltese Falcon) so I resolved not to have any in the game I'm running. It feels too easy to create unsolvable problem X then create impossible item Y which magically fixes problem X.

I think part of the issue with magic item shops is the meaning of the word 'magic'. One of its meanings for us is special or unique. But the problem is that in D&D universes 'magic' does not mean special, it refers to a universal force, like gravity or electromagnetism. You could argue that calling such a force 'magic' is misleading and it should have its own descriptive term, like 'The Ebb' in SLA Industries.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Personally, I just went to a skill-based combat system so that your personal skill (in general) outweighs the value of your magic sword.

 

[Felix]

I am currently reading Hour of the Dragon by Robert E. Howard. <snip>

1. The Heart is nothing less than an artifact. That is decidedly not what we're talking about.

2. The Hyborian Age is noteworthy for its dearth of magic items; suits you to a T, I imagine. While it works as an example of how a world can work without magic, it is certainly something other than "standard D&D". But you don't like that word either, do you?

Is it one that works well in a MagicMart world?

Obscure collectors of antiquities strewn through the world does not make the setting one giant emporium. If you continue to suggest so I'll begin to think you actually intend the sneering condemnation of immature gaming that your prior posts have been, I hope unwittingly, reeking of.

 

[Jedi_Solo]

Our group recently went over to the RPGA item system. This was decided after a couple of us (players and DM included) had our head sexplode when it took over two hours to devide loot that everyone basically sold off anyway (clean up after that session was real [bleep]).

What was the point of getting stuff off of NPCs and raiding dragon hoards when most of it would just be sold anyway? Why did the players spend such a large amount of time splitting gear that they obviously didn't want anyway? (Part of the answer was that in an earlier campaign the fighter ended up with all of the magic weapons since he was the only (or almost only one) who could use the randomly rolled weapons and no one (including the DM) noticed what had happened for quite a while).

Yes; that assumes that PCs are able to sell their gear and our DM has some problems with the current setup as he said we won't be using this system next campaign.

Going after the MacGuffin as an adventure is fine. It's the purpose of the adventure. Roleplaying an encounter to buy a potion of Cure Light Wounds is fine. I don't want to RP buying the potion every single week though. I don't mind watching another player RP buying the potion but I'd likely get bored watching ALL of the other players RP buying that potion week... after week... after week...

I'm there to save the world/universe/multiverse and the most likely method of doing that is to kill things. I hope my DM lets me RP buying the big weapon - or buy the flying carpet from the Magic Carpet Guy who is played like Harley Davidson Motorcycle Guy. Even buying that potion once or twice. But not all the time.

I like the converatsion - I like to do more at the table than roll d20s (I like rolling d8s!!). But I am there for the story and the story (usually) doesn't advance when I'm haggling over the price of a replacement Wand of CLW.

 

[Raven Crowking]

1. The Heart is nothing less than an artifact. That is decidedly not what we're talking about.

In any classic fantasy, it is difficult to come up with an example of someone simply buying anything magical without a lot of effort involved. The only example I can think off is Bilbo buying some magical toys from Dale for his party in The Fellowship of the Ring.

2. The Hyborian Age is noteworthy for its dearth of magic items; suits you to a T, I imagine. While it works as an example of how a world can work without magic, it is certainly something other than "standard D&D". But you don't like that word either, do you?

Nope. Much as I enjoy reading Howard and Burroughs, I use a world with quite a bit more magic than they do. Story hours in my sig (although woefully far behind and untouched in a long time) will give you some idea. Or read some of the "Some X Encounters" threads that I've started. I posted an initial adventure setting on EN World, where I was asked if I really thought I should be giving out so much magic to 1st level characters. So, go figure.

Also, you should note that what "standard D&D" means has changed quite a bit over time. If you mean "standard 3e D&D", then I agree that some of the ways that they used the rules engine, and some of the defaults, aren't to my particular tastes. But that should be okay....different strokes for different folks, right? Besides, I am more than capable of making changes to the game to make it suit my tastes.

Obscure collectors of antiquities strewn through the world does not make the setting one giant emporium. If you continue to suggest so I'll begin to think you actually intend the sneering condemnation of immature gaming that your prior posts have been, I hope unwittingly, reeking of.

I think (hope) you are confusing me with some other poster. If not, you are really reading what I am writing in a way it was not intended to be read.

Again, I define a MagicMart as any place where one can buy whatever (or nearly whatever) magic items one wants for a price close to that listed in the DMG. Kamikaze Midget sought to qualify the word "place" in that definition, and I answered his questions. If the game allows you to treat a city as a single place, a continent as a single place, a world as a single place, or a plane of existence as a single place in terms of shopping then I would agree that any of these meets my definition.

"Obscure collectors of antiquities strewn through the world" doesn't imply that "can buy whatever (or nearly whatever) magic items one wants for a price close to that listed in the DMG" nor does it imply a single "place". If you run the world, though, so that those "obscure collectors" are effectively a single place, then it meets my definition.

This all goes back to the OP, where the question is asked, do MagicMarts (or Magical Wallmarts, or whatever) really exist? There are a few posts in this thread where people say they use them, so I would answer Yes. Of course, that Yes has to be qualified on the basis of what one means by the term.

I suppose, btw, that you also missed the post where I said that there were some settings that probably mandate MagicMarts as I define them.

Remember, there are no facial expressions, no vocal inflections, and no gestures on messageboards. Emoticons don't really cut it. I hope that, when you read what you believe to be "sneering condemnation of immature gaming" that you will consider that, possibly, you are reading the other poster's words in the worst possible light. I know I've been guilty of the same more than once, no matter how often I remind myself to do better.

 

[Ourph]

The problem is, it's generally used as a term to mean, "My campaign is so hard core that my players cannot just buy whatever item they want willy nilly."

I disagree. I think the problem is that some people are way too quick to believe they can read someone else's intentions based on a two word phrase.

The OP doesn't seem to be talking about a playstyle. He seems to be talking about a specific descrete location in the game world.

Well, that was my original point before we got sidetracked into the discussion of euphemisms. IMO the OP's understanding of the term "Magic Wal-mart" is flawed. As a result, his points about the inaccuracy of the term are also flawed.

So saying that "MagicWalmarts make perfect sense if you define them as X, and not Y" doesn't really address the OP, who obviously doesn't share definition X with quite a few posters who apparently are fond of the term, right?

Of course it addresses the OP. He says "I see no evidence of this thing, it must not exist." I respond by saying, "The thing does exist, you are looking for the wrong kind of evidence because you misunderstand the nature of the thing." That is a constructive response to the OP's post. He may not agree with me, but it is a direct and useful response to his original point.

For example, I said "You are mistaken in calling "Magic Wal-marts" an inaccurate term. It is a euphemism, it's not supposed to be interpreted literally." Doug McCrae responded by pointing out the definition of euphemism and arguing that my use of the word didn't fit the definition.

Now, I happen to disagree with Doug, but that doesn't mean his post doesn't address me and my point. If it didn't I wouldn't agree or disagree with him, I would simply be confused by his response.

 

[Hussar]

I disagree. I think the problem is that some people are way too quick to believe they can read someone else's intentions based on a two word phrase.

Well, having seen it rather often in post after post, I'll just agree to disagree. A bazillion "How can I do low magic" type threads where you often see this crop up tend to disagree with you.

 

[Emirikol]

I've got a low-magic setting WITH magic walmarts (see artwork). Essentially I have a limit however. Just like a real-walmart, there's nothign with a value over 300 gp's

WalMagicmart: Low quality items for people who don't know better.

Our rule is potions or scrolls up to 300 gp in value may be found in most villages (unless the DM say's otherwise) in witches and herbalists shops.

jh
Walmart ruins everything

http://www.enworld.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=28410

 

[Raven Crowking]

Well, having seen it rather often in post after post, I'll just agree to disagree. A bazillion "How can I do low magic" type threads where you often see this crop up tend to disagree with you.

Are you honestly surprised that, if someone says "How can I do low magic?" that someone else says "Don't let the PCs easily buy whatever they want"? If money equates to magic (which is what the ability to buy any magic with money means), then you cannot have a low magic setting unless it is also a low money setting. Therefore, one has to break the "money = magic" assumption in order to proceed with a low magic, normal money game.

That seems so commonsensical to me that I fail to see your point.

 

[Ourph]

Well, having seen it rather often in post after post, I'll just agree to disagree. A bazillion "How can I do low magic" type threads where you often see this crop up tend to disagree with you.

As I've said above, it is useful shorthand. It doesn't surprise me that it gets used often in discussions of low magic settings. I fail to see how the fact that the phrase crops up often translates into the phrase being intentionally offensive. :\