The Magic-Walmart myth

[I'm A Banana]

This meant that there was one (known) place that you could go to buy from a MagicMart in the entire world. Overall, the world was lower magic than the 3.X D&D standard, but there was one source that was outside the norm.

How often were the characters capable of using this resource?

Because regardless of how low-magic the world is, if the PC's had a bunch of magic items that they could choose from at whim, the campaign was pretty high-magic, higher than normal D&D, in fact.

Default 3e doesn't have anything that convenient, even. Greyhawk/core D&D is limited by the size of the town (with the possible single exceptions of planar metropoli like Sigil). Eberron is limited by the lack of high-level NPC's (potions and scrolls are common, but you won't find much above +1 for sale anywhere). FR is limited by forcing you to deal peacably with an evil organization.

If PC's could talk to some weird giants and get a +5 sword (even if they had to make an overland journey or stay near the capital city), the core options are all more difficult.

Feels that way to me. At least, it does if you can easily teleport to the right place to find what you want, or you handwave the search. YMMV. Different strokes for different folks and all that.

I believe you slightly misread me. My confusion doesn't come from the modern definition per se (though it is odd that teleporting feels modern to you since...well...we can't. ), but merely that the distinction between "modern" and "non-modern" is not in any inherent feature of the world, but rather in how the DM describes certain activities.

If he describes it as "You visit some curio shops until you find what you're looking for" it's a MagicMart, but if he roleplays the old fuddy-duddy in the smelly apothecary who stumbled accross a +1 sword one day while digging up roots in the woods, it's a Magic Shop?

More Detail = Less Modern?

It's kind of derailing the thread, but I don't really understand the connection there.

 

[Raven Crowking]

How often were the characters capable of using this resource?

I sandbox, so they were able to use it; they just never did. BTW, if you are restricted to a single location in which a resource can be used, you cannot use it "at whim" unless getting to that location can be done "at whim". Remove Teleport effects, and make Spot X the only place that the dead can be brought back to life, and then ask your players if having a resource available only at a single location makes a difference to them. I'll bet that it does!

It's kind of derailing the thread, but I don't really understand the connection there.

Sure. We come from different backgrounds. We might prefer different novels and different music and different movies. The things that we relate to in gaming might be quite different. Things that make you think of X might make me think of Y, and vice versa.

Hence, "different strokes for different folks".

 

[I'm A Banana]

I sandbox, so they were able to use it; they just never did. BTW, if you are restricted to a single location in which a resource can be used, you cannot use it "at whim" unless getting to that location can be done "at whim". Remove Teleport effects, and make Spot X the only place that the dead can be brought back to life, and then ask your players if having a resource available only at a single location makes a difference to them. I'll bet that it does!

So the campaign was voluntarily low-magic. And it only makes a difference if they have some limitation to just camping out near it and going on adventures around it. Your players would, I believe, be the exception to the rule in this case. I know most of the people I've played with over the years would likely travel to Spot X, and seek adventure around it, because they wouldn't want to get stuck somewhere land-locked with a bushel full of potions of water breathing and nothing to use them on.

Sure. We come from different backgrounds. We might prefer different novels and different music and different movies. The things that we relate to in gaming might be quite different. Things that make you think of X might make me think of Y, and vice versa.

Perhaps I should be more explicit:

Why do you think that way, and what makes you believe that thinking that way makes your definition of "MagicMart" something that is relevant?

Because if the difference between "Magic WalMart" and "Magic Shop" is simply a subjective scale of modernity, there's support for "Magic WalMart" being abandoned as a fairly useless term for constructive discourse.

 

[Raven Crowking]

So the campaign was voluntarily low-magic.

There is no low magic campaign that is not.

Your players would, I believe, be the exception to the rule in this case.

Perhaps, but I knew who would be playing when I set up the environment, so it came as no surprise.

Why do you think that way, and what makes you believe that thinking that way makes your definition of "MagicMart" something that is relevant?

My definition of a MagicMart is a single place where one can buy whatever (or nearly whatever) magic items one wants at book (or near book) value. This is what the term implies to me, just as if I went to Walmart, I would do so because I knew I could do one-stop shopping at a known (or close to known) price.

"Magic Shop" doesn't imply that one can buy whatever (or nearly whatever) magic items one wants at book (or near book) value.

Teleport or handwaving can be used in such a way as to make several places effectively one place. However, multiple places do not have to be handwaved in this fashion. Nor do multiple places have to have everything one wants (no matter how many places) nor do they have to be priced according to book value.

MagicMart is a type of magic shop, IMHO. A "Magic Shop" may be a "MagicMart", but does not have to be. This is similar to the idea that a shark is a fish, but not all fish are sharks. A lion is a feline, but not all felines are lions. Etc., etc., etc.

One Stop Shopping is a modern concept. Using Teleport to allow effective "one stop shopping" feels modern because in this case Teleportation is a handwave device to allow a particular concept to work, much as the technobabble of Star Trek allows certain plot devices to work.

EDIT: D&D contains all sorts of modernisms, of course. The question is, for each player/DM/group, what modernisms break/fold/spindle/mutilate your sense of disbelief and/or immersion in the game? Those are modernisms you probably don't want to include. So, for those people who like sharks, it seems wrong to differentiate them from other fish. For those who like many types of fish, but not in most cases sharks, it seems proper to say "no sharks in this campaign".

 

[Raven Crowking]

Why do you think that way, and what makes you believe that thinking that way makes your definition of "MagicMart" something that is relevant?

It answers the OP's question?

 

[I'm A Banana]

One Stop Shopping is a modern concept. Using Teleport to allow effective "one stop shopping" feels modern because in this case Teleportation is a handwave device to allow a particular concept to work, much as the technobabble of Star Trek allows certain plot devices to work.

Ah, I understand now more where our strokes differ. I don't consider handwaved one-stop-shopping to be really anything like actual one-stop-shopping. The former, for me, comes from a desire for efficiency in play. I handwave a week of time, I handwave an uneventful journey, I handwave entire kingdoms, and that doesn't mean that nothing happens, it means that the players don't have to pay attention to what their PC's are doing because there's no significant descisions to be made or anything like that. It still gets injected with a short sentence description, but the handwave is a useful tool for me to save buckets of time and get to what my group is interested in.

You seem to both use MagicMart in the literal AND figurative senses, where it is both ACTUAL one-stop shopping and things that just feel like one-stop shopping in play, depending upon context. That's part of where bones of contention leap in, because for many people, the two are not really one in the same at all, and to equate the two is muddy language, not to mention reducing a world whose medieval-ish specialization is intact to a modernism simply because of the player's convenience (not the character's).

 

[Ourph]

You seem to both use MagicMart in the literal AND figurative senses, where it is both ACTUAL one-stop shopping and things that just feel like one-stop shopping in play, depending upon context. That's part of where bones of contention leap in, because for many people, the two are not really one in the same at all, and to equate the two is muddy language, not to mention reducing a world whose medieval-ish specialization is intact to a modernism simply because of the player's convenience (not the character's).

Why is it muddy language if the effect on the actual game is the same? If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and hatches cute, little duck babies, then it's a duck. You are asking us to accept that there is an actual difference between a game where the players buy anything they want without expending any actual, real-world thought or time on the process and a game where the players buy anything they want without expending any actual, real-world thought or time on the process but in the DM's imagination something complex and "medieval-ish" happens. What, exactly, is that difference?

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

By what divination spell did you determine the purpose of everyone using that phrase

'Magic shop' is shorter and more neutral, though still possibly misleading as it suggests modern establishments with a large stock. Why would anyone use 'magic Wal-Mart' instead of 'magic shop' unless the aim were to ridicule?

Ah, so your divination spell included your prejudice concerning the term as you would apply it. I am pretty sure there are reasons for using the term that have nothing in the way of intent to ridicule. Besides... who are we to ridicule? We are a bunch of {hopefully} mature people spending our time debating online semantics regarding an opinion of a game of make believe .... :\

I agree with RC's definition, "... a MagicMart is a single place where one can buy whatever (or nearly whatever) magic items one wants at book (or near book) value."

IMO, handwaving the shopping experience... with a proper allocation of time spent... can be a good method for keeping the game on track based on the groups playstyle. But not for a scenario like this:

GM: You make it to the city late, just clearing the gates as they close at midnight. Checking with the guards you discover that the caravan you wish to join leaves at dawn from the southern gate. Okay.. you all rest up for the night.. is there anything you do before dawn?

MagicMart shopper: Ya, I am going to go out and restock.. I buy {flips through books...scribbles notes.. pounds on calculater} 3,500 gp worth of goods, to include a double bitted spade enhanced with 'Move Earth' and 'Goggles of the Eagle'.... Then since I was riding on the cart I can get 6 hours of rest before dawn and can recover my spells....




Incidently, I would have no problem with a high level Mage using Teleport as a means to go from place to place while purchasing stuff.. its just like walking, only faster. And the Mage would have to know where to Teleport to... IMHO there should be teh medevial specialization and findig the right shop with the right seller who can acquire the item for you...but is not likely to have it on-hand, sitting in a display case right next to the monkey on a stick BBQ stand...

 

[Doug McCrae]

What, exactly, is that difference?

Between the game and the game world.

An analogy would be when journeys are handwaved, the GM says, "OK you travel for six weeks and arrive in the city of Greyhawk". The journey takes five seconds in the game but it takes six weeks in the game world. Now that's effectively a teleport right? So we might as well say that those games contain Star Trek transporters. No one could be confused by that.

After all, it's obviously just a metaphor.

 

[Nellisir]

This all goes back to the OP, where the question is asked, do MagicMarts (or Magical Wallmarts, or whatever) really exist?

No, what he asked was, "why does the phrase and comparison exist as a measuring stick?", qualified by the statement that he's never seen any (with, by his standards, two exceptions).

His post, and the question, clearly refer not to a theoretical general availability of magic items in the campaign setting, but an actual "Wal-mart-like" establishment in a campaign.

What is a Wal-mart-like establishment?

I'd attribute the following characteristics to the term: large, characterless, low-cost items, low-quality items, lowest common denominator, uniformity, bland, faceless/unengagable management

So if your magic shops doesn't have those qualities, then you haven't got a magic-wal-mart. Your shop might have everything in the DMG at listed price, but if it's quaint, or interesting, or a genuine roleplaying experience, then it's probably not magic-Wal-marty as the phrase is commonly used.

I'm sure campaigns exist that do include magic Wal-marts, but the term, overall, is a perjorative one, and the qualities attributed to it are not positive ones.

So why does the term exist? Why "magic Wal-mart", and not a "magic shoppe", or even "magic Woolworths"?

Because it evokes negative qualities in people's mind, and it's used by people who want to create a negative image.

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And just to be clear, I don't think the question was about a general availability of magic items. It was about the phrase "magic Wal-Mart", and why it exists. It may have -become- emotionally neutral and purely descriptive for some people, but IMO, it began and remains a negative term for most people. It works because Walmart is a familiar quality with a negative association for the cast majority of Americans (and probably others). It's not about the "myth" of magic item availability.