The Magic-Walmart myth

[Raven Crowking]

Quoted for truth, as they say.

All the games I've had that were "standard" item availability didn't have anything akin to Wal-Marts

Granted that you can have "standard" item availability without having MagicMarts (although you might have a harder time following the advice in the MIC to "Just Say Yes" whenever you are asked if something can be bought).

The difference, IMHO, in your case is that "At times with some rarer goods, the items will be more expensive or not available".

But, saying that something doesn't exist simply because you yourself haven't experienced it leads to the conclusion (for me) that Australia doesn't exist.

 

[Bacris]

But, saying that something doesn't exist simply because you yourself haven't experienced it leads to the conclusion (for me) that Australia doesn't exist.

Except that if you go by most of the internet posts to the contrary, Magic Wal-Marts are the industry standard, or at least a regular occurrence, as opposed to what it sounds like more as the exception to the rule. Simply because they exist in small quantities doesn't mean that they are anywhere near as common in gaming experience as more vocal posters would like us to believe

You could have a poster saying that they struck oil in their backyard and it's flooding their house - that doesn't mean oil is likely to flood everyone's house - it's the exception, rather than the rule

 

[Shadeydm]

Magitech is a slap? I thought it denoted a crossing of magic and technology, like in a Steampunk world or as with the mad scientists of Deadlands. Wait, is Steampunk a slap now?

Anime is a slap? I thought it was a genre of animation styled after Japanese style animation (itself originally styled after Walt Disney). I know some people would rather not have anime influences in their fantasy role-playing, but how does that make the term itself a slap?

Dungeonpunk is a slap? I thought it was an intentional design choice with the core 3.0 books, to differentiate them from previous editions and attempt to draw in a new crowd of younger players. As with everything, some people don't like it, but how does that make the term itself a slap? That would be like saying that "chocolate" is a slap because some people prefer vanilla.

Tolkeinesque is a slap? Presumably then also Gygaxian? Howardesque? Burroughsesque? Again, this is a descriptive term that denotes a particular style or influence. If you like that style or influence, it is a bonus. If not, at least you are warned. How is this a slap?

QUOTE]

QFT!

 

[Raven Crowking]

Except that if you go by most of the internet posts to the contrary, Magic Wal-Marts are the industry standard, or at least a regular occurrence, as opposed to what it sounds like more as the exception to the rule. Simply because they exist in small quantities doesn't mean that they are anywhere near as common in gaming experience as more vocal posters would like us to believe

If EN World has taught me nothing else, it is that you cannot determine what the standard is from reading message boards. Everything seems to be the province of "vocal minorities" -- and the most important question seems to be, which vocal minorities have ideas that are usable in my own game?

But, if the question is, "Do they exist?" the answer is "Yes".

If the question is, "How common are they?" the answer is "Depends on who you ask and where they play".

It's like the thread about how our 1e experiences could have been so different, really. I suspect that our 3e experiences are equally divergent, and we just haven't realized it yet.

 

[Quasqueton]

The OP's point was, stated in list form for easy understanding:

1- The core, basic, default rules do not say or suggest that PCs can buy magic items in any kind of single-stop shop. The only things I can find in the revised (3.5) DMG that even speaks to buying magic items at all is:

p137, Community Wealth and Populations:
"Anything having a price under that limit [GP Limit] is most likely available, wheter it be mundane or magical."

p139, Economics:
"Spellcasters willing to make magic items or cast spells for hire can make a lot of money, although expenditures of personal power (experience points) are often involved, and the demand for such expensive items is unsteady at best and can be depended on only in large cities."

p215, Magic Item Descriptions:
"Market Price: This gold piece value, given following the word 'Price,' represents the price someone should expect to pay to buy the item."

The opening paragraph from the Magic Items chapter in the DMG doesn't even mention purchasing magic items: "Magic items are the hallmarks of a legendary campaign. They are gleaned from the hoards of conquered monsters, taken from fallen foes, and sometimes crafted by the characters themselves. The most valuable and coveted of all the sorts of treasure that an adventurer could hope to find, magic items grant abilities to a charcter that . . ." No mention of buying magic items.

And Players shouldn't be reading the DMG anyway, right? So from a Player's point of view, the above three non-commital statements don't exist.

There's no mention in the PHB of purchasing magic items. The craft magic item feats only mention a "base price," but no more. The Player with a craft feat wouldn't even know what the base price is for an item he or she wanted to craft. Only the DM has that knowledge.

A new Player coming into the game with just the PHB would not have any conception of purchasing magic items. Even a DM, reading the DMG, might not get the idea of allowing PCs to buy magic items from the above three statements.


2- Even if a DM chooses to allow PCs to purchase magic items, handwaving the shopping does not say or suggest that the items are found and bought at any kind of Walmart-like store. Most DMs handwave all purchases -- for a torch, a masterwork sword, a warhorse, a suit of full plate armor, a potion of invisibility, a +1 flaming sword, etc. Handwaving a shopping trip in a city does not mean the DM is creating a Walmart-like experience. If you don't think that PCs buy weapons and armors off a shelf, why do you think potions and wands are bought off a shelf?


3- So, since by the core rules, there are no "Magic Walmarts" in a default-style campaign world, describing a setting as having "no Magic Walmarts" does not mean "low magic". It basically means "not higher magic than the core rules," which from the context of most posts using the phrase, is not what the poster seems to mean.

As I compared in the OP, it's like saying "no god killing PCs" to mean "low powered." Since PCs in a default campaign aren't usually killing gods, even at 20th level, "no god killing PCs" basically means, "not more powerful than the core rules."

Quasqueton

 

[Raven Crowking]

3- So, since by the core rules, there are no "Magic Walmarts" in a default-style campaign world, describing a setting as having "no Magic Walmarts" does not mean "low magic". It basically means "not higher magic than the core rules," which from the context of most posts using the phrase, is not what the poster seems to mean.

Go back to your thread about 1e, and how we consistently experienced it in different ways, regardless of how often we moved, regardless of the actual wording. You are ignoring the "Reader Filter" that says "If I wrote this, this is what I would mean, therefore this is what is meant here". It is at least as important as what is actually written.

So, if you play in an area where MagicMarts are more common than standard -- or if you would interpret posts on a messageboard through your Reader Filter that way -- they you are likely to specify "No MagicMarts" or "No God Killing" or whatever.

At least, IMHO, and IME.


RC


EDIT: Personal example. If I had written the text on EL/CR in the 3.0 DMG, using the wording used, I would have been implying that Tailored Encounters were the standard. I therefore interpretted it that way. I recently agreed with KM that this probably wasn't what was intended by the designers, who differentiated (I think) creating setting (sandbox play/Status Quo) from creating adventures (Tailored Encounters).

Just because something seems clearly written to you, doesn't mean that someone else (who also thinks it is clearly written) is gaining the same idea from it. Which one of the reasons why there are contradictions in rules clarifications -- two different readers reasonably read the rule to mean two different things.

 

[LostSoul]

And Players shouldn't be reading the DMG anyway, right?

Huh? Why not?

 

[Hussar]

Magitech is a slap? I thought it denoted a crossing of magic and technology, like in a Steampunk world or as with the mad scientists of Deadlands. Wait, is Steampunk a slap now?

Anime is a slap? I thought it was a genre of animation styled after Japanese style animation (itself originally styled after Walt Disney). I know some people would rather not have anime influences in their fantasy role-playing, but how does that make the term itself a slap?

Dungeonpunk is a slap? I thought it was an intentional design choice with the core 3.0 books, to differentiate them from previous editions and attempt to draw in a new crowd of younger players. As with everything, some people don't like it, but how does that make the term itself a slap? That would be like saying that "chocolate" is a slap because some people prefer vanilla.

Tolkeinesque is a slap? Presumably then also Gygaxian? Howardesque? Burroughsesque? Again, this is a descriptive term that denotes a particular style or influence. If you like that style or influence, it is a bonus. If not, at least you are warned. How is this a slap?

Let me guess: Any descriptive term that describes something that you like that the person using the term doesn't like is automatically a personal attack against you. Sorry, I just can't see it that way.

Ok, I'm not sure if you're just yanking my chain or not. How about this for a reaction then:

Shadowfax was a pokemount.

Should be no problems since pokemount is simply a shorthand for a mount that is easily available when needed and goes away when not. Describes Shadowfax perfectly.

 

[Jedi_Solo]

Magitech is a slap? I thought it denoted a crossing of magic and technology, like in a Steampunk world or as with the mad scientists of Deadlands. Wait, is Steampunk a slap now?

You mean you've never heard someone use Steampunk as a put-down to a setting or style? I've heard it quite a bit. As far as D&D goes I've heard it used as a derogatory term a lot in conjunction with Eberron.

Anime is a slap?

I've heard people try to use it as one. I will admit that in most (if not all) of these cases the person was referring more to the DragonBall or Naruto style and knew they were "anime" so they assumed all anime was like that.

Dungeonpunk is a slap?

I've seen multiple people try to use it as an insult to the early 3.0 D&D art.

That would be like saying that "chocolate" is a slap because some people prefer vanilla.

And I've heard people use chocolate as an insult for someone who was "ooey-gooey sickeningly sweet". (I am not joking.)

You are correct in that anything and everything can be used as an insult and a put down and quite often it is. Telling something that they are 'great' and 'excellant' can be a put down if it said in a sarcastic tone of voice. It's absolutely scary how good people are at cutting others down.

Magic Wal-Mart has been used as an insult and not just on message boards (so I was able to confirm that is what the person was intending to do and I heard the tone-of-voice). It was used to downgrade the target's choice of play style and make the speaker feel superior that they were "role-playing" the shopping encounters and not just "roll-playing" the combats.

As far as I know everytime I have heard Magic Wal-Mart or MagicMart used (until this thread anyway) it has been used as an insult to another play style (it may have been that I incorrectly guessed the intention of the speaker/poster based on that personal experience but the 'insult' seemed to fit the context).

 

[Raven Crowking]

Ok, I'm not sure if you're just yanking my chain or not. How about this for a reaction then:

Shadowfax was a pokemount.

Should be no problems since pokemount is simply a shorthand for a mount that is easily available when needed and goes away when not. Describes Shadowfax perfectly.

If that's what you mean by the term (as opposed to the 3.X paladin's mount), then that's perfectly fine. So was Trigger, Silver, and any plot-device-mount used in any story, ever.