The Magic-Walmart myth

Huh. I don't think I've played in a 3.X D&D game yet where the GM seriously (or even trivially) limited the availability of magic items. Neither have we ever had any trouble selling items no matter what they were. This is with multiple GMs in multiple settings.

Is it really common for GMs to limit MI sales to add verisimilitude to the world? While this would actually be a plus for me as a player I've yet to see it.

Sadly, the force is with Wal-mart.
Buying and selling magic items does not imply a Magic-Walmart. Can the PCs buy full plate armor? How about 3 suits for their henchmen? Does this mean full plate armor hangs on racks in an Armor-Walmart?

Can the PCs buy a sailing ship? Can they sell a sailing ship they captured? Does this mean there are new and used ship lots?

Can the PCs buy a spyglass? A waterclock? Thunderstones? Alchemist fire? Holy water? Are there Mundane-Walmarts?

Just because a DM allows PCs to purchase expensive items (magical or mundane) does not mean there are anything like a Walmart. It usually just means that the DM (and the Players) don't want to role play out the shopping expedition -- skip the boring stuff to get back to the adventure.

Say the PCs come back from the dungeon with some loot to spend. One PC wants to buy a suit of full plate armor (1,500gp), one wants to buy a spyglass (1,000gp), one wants to buy four tanglefoot bags (200gp), one wants to buy a heavy warhorse (400gp), one wants to buy a potion of cure light wounds and a potion of invisibility (50gp and 300gp), and one wants to buy a +1 chain shirt (1,250gp). Are any of these purchases made at any kind of Walmart store? Are the magic item purchases more game breaking than the mundane item purchases?

Quasqueton
 

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Aeric said:
I think the idea of a "Magic Wal-Mart" came about when lazy DMs looked at the list of magic items in the DMG, saw the prices next to them, and decided that they would be available on demand, off-the-rack, in any community that could support the cost. What no one seems to take into consideration is the XP cost. Where is this army of high- to mid-level casters who are slowly killing themselves by mass producing magic items? At best, a non-adventuring wizard should be able to produce one high-end item per year, or a couple of potions and scrolls.

Or possibly the GM says they get XP for doing their "job" (crafting magical items in this case) which they use to make more items. The XP portion of item creation is there to balance PCs, not to limit the rest of the world. Its not like you have to take time out of scribing scrolls and go kill some orcs and goblins so that you can go back to scribing scrolls again. Anything you do that nets you XP does the trick, not just strapping on a pack and killing things.

DS
 

Aeric said:
I think the idea of a "Magic Wal-Mart" came about when lazy DMs...(snip)...All it takes is a little common sense...snip...the idea of a second-hand magic item shop isn't that far-fetched...snip...Business dries up.

But most people don't play RPG's to mimic real world economies. We play to have fun, and worrying about inflation, deflation, supply and demand, exchange rates, labor, capital, etc. just isn't as much fun as killing things and taking stuff, or rescuing the princess, or saving the kingdom. We're not playing Sim Kingdom

It's not about laziness, it's about having fun. If a group enjoys worrying about macroeconomics, great. Personally, I suspect most groups are happy with a world where the economics are about as realistic as the terrain and weather, i.e., not very.
 

Say the PCs come back from the dungeon with some loot to spend. One PC wants to buy a suit of full plate armor (1,500gp), one wants to buy a spyglass (1,000gp), one wants to buy four tanglefoot bags (200gp), one wants to buy a heavy warhorse (400gp), one wants to buy a potion of cure light wounds and a potion of invisibility (50gp and 300gp), and one wants to buy a +1 chain shirt (1,250gp). Are any of these purchases made at any kind of Walmart store? Are the magic item purchases more game breaking than the mundane item purchases?

To answer, IMHO, it depends. Are they in a big city? Are Heavy Warhorses common in the area? Also, Full plate, despite being expensive, does not require the expendature of xp, and its a craft skill, so not so far out of reach as spellcasting--time seems to be the largest investment here. XP doesn't grow on trees, despite some adventurer's feelings to the contrary. And once you get beyond a certain point, it seems like spellcasters must pooping magic to keep up with the apparent availability levels. And not every town/village/mudhole is going to have everything someone needs, even if it falls within the max item cost. Why? A little math and some common sense. Geography, industry, and politics can also play a part. In any but the largest cities, how many high level wizards or clerics exist, per the current rules in the DMG?

Say you even have a Large City. Pop about 18,000. In that city, at best you have three 13th level wizards, six 6th level wizards, and 12 3rd level wizards, 3 13th level sorcerers, six 6th level sorcerers, 3 15th level clerics, 6 7th level clerics, 12 3rd level clerics. The same for druids. So at best you MIGHT see a fair availability of mid level items ASSUMING some of those 6th and 7th level folks spend their time selling or making items as well. How many of those dozen high level characters actually make stuff? Realistically? How many clerics would even sell items to those outside their faith? Even if you say half of these guys have the ability to make items, and half of those actually make them for general sale (which I think is being generous) you got about 3 high level casters churning out magic . . . . .do the math.

Trade with other cities? Sure, but caravans can get raided. Detect Magic is easy to come by, so it would be a costly endeavor to effectively guard such trade, making it . . . not so much a money maker as some would think. Items made in the past and unearthed by adventurers? Sure, but how many adventurers do you got floating around? Again, take into account the numbers and levels generated by even a fairly large city, count the number of cities you may have of a notable size in your world, and again, it becomes a very niche industry . . . .unless your world is chock full o' Metropolises . . . but then that would seem to strain credulity a bit. And even so, you'd find the number of folks available to be less than what you would need to reasonably allow EVERY item someone wants, within the village/city/town's GP limit, to be available. Again, unless every caster that CAN make items DOES, and every character of a PC class adventures, and every priestly organization, or arcane organization for that matter, just sells their stuff willy nilly. Sure, some would, that's reasonable, but not all. Not all casters are going to see the GP as the be all end all to power, and prefer to keep their shiny stuff. Heck, especially since even the moderate powered stuff can start to drain their xp pretty rapidly . . . not to mention creation time (which would start to hedge out that much needed adventure time to recoup their xp loss)

So, again, IMO, the whole "Magic mart thing" is the idea that anything that can be available, therefore must be, despite even the basic application of common sense, or any attempt to form some sort of pseudo-real economic and political structure that's even good enough to allow one to suspend disbelief. I'm not a hard one to go along with the whole suspension of disbelief thing, but even I find the default assumptions of magic availability to be stretching it towards inplausability. It works if you assume your NPCs have no personalities or agenda of their own, other than to trade and create magic for your characters to purchase, but I think the system falls short and indeed looks Magic Mart like.

Anyway, that's my take.
 

For me the magimart hate is misplaced. Sure in a D&D world magic items are abundant and can be found in dungeons galore so why not the towns where they are made? BUT the true source of ire IMO is the metagaming knowledge of players who seek to trade in items. It's one thing to not know the properties of a found item and use identify to learn them, but when it comes to spending loot for magic, every character of all classes and levels becomes an expert on magic item types and their infinite variety of properties. Its a minor gripe yes, but surely 'let the buyer beware' should be a constant threat to their hard earned money, unless they craft the items themselves or have someone with the proper arcane knowledge on hand.
 

But most people don't play RPG's to mimic real world economies. We play to have fun, and worrying about inflation, deflation, supply and demand, exchange rates, labor, capital, etc. just isn't as much fun as killing things and taking stuff, or rescuing the princess, or saving the kingdom. We're not playing Sim Kingdom

It's not about laziness, it's about having fun. If a group enjoys worrying about macroeconomics, great. Personally, I suspect most groups are happy with a world where the economics are about as realistic as the terrain and weather, i.e., not very.

But i don't think one precludes the other. Besides, its not just about the players having fun. The guy (or gal) behind the screen wants to as well. If they have no problem with the way thing are set up, then I guess more power to you. Some of us like a little bit of realism, without necessarily engaging in full fledged economics and such. truth is, it doesn't take much more than a cursory look at the system to see its a bit wonky. I like 3.5 and all, but its still a bit wonky on this issue.
 

Midknightsun said:
So, again, IMO, the whole "Magic mart thing" is the idea that anything that can be available, therefore must be, despite even the basic application of common sense, or any attempt to form some sort of pseudo-real economic and political structure that's even good enough to allow one to suspend disbelief. I'm not a hard one to go along with the whole suspension of disbelief thing, but even I find the default assumptions of magic availability to be stretching it towards inplausability. It works if you assume your NPCs have no personalities or agenda of their own, other than to trade and create magic for your characters to purchase, but I think the system falls short and indeed looks Magic Mart like.

Anyway, that's my take.

I agree with you 100%. Its not out of the realm of possibility that there would be some trade in magic items- of course there would be. What bothers me is the notion that just because the PCs want it and have the gold, they have a RIGHT to the items in question. Basically, its asking that the PCs be the center of the world, and all other NPCs in question exist to serve them, and have no motives or agendas of their own. Most of the D&D games I've played in have been like this, and while its a thrill at first to be catered to, eventually it gets really old and really dull- and results in players who have attitudes similar to spoiled rich kids who get anything and everything they want.

Another thing that is rarely, if ever considered is that the government/nobility would likely NOT want free trade of magic items to its citizens. Nobles hold their lands together through a combination of diplomacy, political maneuvering, and force. Now, if it were easy for any person to go buy a scroll of Charm Person, or Change Self, or a wand of fireballs, you've suddenly thrown a big monkeywrench in the governmental machinery. Now its possible for anyone to control a noble's mind, impersonate a noble, or defy the noble's troops because of the ease of finding and buying items, and these are LOW level items. The problems would only become worse with more potent and higher level items. Logically, nobles would restrict the availability of magic items that can control others, be used for offensive purposes, and allow divinations for the same reasons our society doesn't allow private citizens to own heavy weapons, preform wiretaps, utilize espionage equipment, and hack into government (or private) databases for example. Historically, the nobility didn't allow anyone but other nobles and mercenaries to use swords, polearms, or crossbows, or wear almost any sort of metal armor- it undermined their authority and ability to control their subjects. Now in a world with monsters I could see loosening some weapon and armor restrictions, but allowing anyone to purchase whatever kind of magical gear they wanted with no oversight? Not a chance.
 
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Quasqueton said:
Whenever someone talks about a preference for, or a setting is, low magic, they always comment, "there are no Magic-Walmarts" (or Magimarts, etc.). This kind of statement makes no sense.

The setting suggested in the core rules has no "Magic-Walmarts". Greyhawk has no Magic-Walmarts. I'm not real familiar with Eberron or Forgotten Realms, but I don't think they have Magic-Walmart-style stores either.

Yes they do. It's not setting specific, it's rules specific. It doesn't matter if FR doesn't specifically say there are magic marts in the setting; the PCs would get slaughtered if those shops don't exist.

WotC made 3.x too dependent on magic items (IMO) and the only way to balance the items is to make them available for sale.

If you had a low magic rules set (and I don't mean some ad hoc "I'm taking away magic items and watch you suffer" setting from a GM who thinks they understand the rules but are just proving they do not) then you could dispense with the shops. Systems like d20 Modern, Star Wars, Grim Tales and Spycraft can all handle that to a reasonable degree but 3.x cannot.
 

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