The Magic-Walmart myth

[Creeping Death]

Huh. I don't think I've played in a 3.X D&D game yet where the GM seriously (or even trivially) limited the availability of magic items. Neither have we ever had any trouble selling items no matter what they were. This is with multiple GMs in multiple settings.

Is it really common for GMs to limit MI sales to add verisimilitude to the world? While this would actually be a plus for me as a player I've yet to see it.

Sadly, the force is with Wal-mart.

I would have to say that this strikes me more as getting paper work out of the way. The game is Dungeons & Dragons, not Barter & Trade. How often are all spell components kept track of? How often is environment really used (Bob, the fighter takes damage walking through a burning building, but wearing full plate in the middle of a 120 degree desert doesn't seem to phase him).

Certain things are skipped in order to keep the most important things on track. Joe sells his magic item, Bob does charity work, Tim checks out the red light district.... Ok, you leave the town and head towards *insert sinister sounding place*. See, it's just glossed over. Doesn't mean there is a walmart ready to buy and sell magic items.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Magic-marts are a handy exaggeration that people bring up when they want to be snobbish about how -they- game.

If there were no MagicMarts, there would be no responses claiming that calling them MagicMarts is snobbish. Nor would there be folks claiming that they are a logical extention of the rules on every "low magic" thread that ever gets to four posts.

I know that you were hoping to play Mythbusters, but in this case the only "myth" is that MagicMarts don't exist outside of Internet forums.

RC

 

[DungeonMaester]

In my 15 years experience, the magic item Wal-Mart has been around before wal-mart as far I can tell. believe it or not, only 1 DM I ever said, No, had the magic store does not have anything you could want to buy. There are alot of Dms out there who just say "Ok, what do you want to buy? Alright, do you have the money?"

I have rejected magic items in my campaigns only because they are story devices in my campaigns, not power ups, and as much as I hate to say it because it (Clee-Shay)[Sp] the video game mentality even though in the mid 80s when I was 8 and started playing D&D at the same time as i got my first NES, the same thing was happening.

For me, its not 'hate' per say, just a rejection of the idea that a character is only as good as his magic items. In 3.5 like in 1st ed, when ever a problem came up all players would stop and search there character sheets for something to help, rather then doing any problem solving. In 3.5 I had the same trouble, only more so because people would open up books and argue about a mechanic and how it would work.

D&D and rpg in general is like a art form because it is all arbitrary to personal experiences. There is no myth, only flat out lies.

Just my 2 copper pieces.

---Rusty

 

[Ace]

I prefer to let the players get what they want when they want it with few limitations. While there isn't a magic items Wal-Mart or any other kind of big box retailer there are lots of places that buy and sell magic items.

A artificer can get you most items as can a church of the merchant god, a magesmith, druids, a decently high level wizard, sutler, auction houses, magic item specialty shops etc etc . Hell if the PC' meet the prerequisites and have the power components they can make it themselves.

Magic items in D&D are just stuff, no more magical than say a flashlight in the real world.

What sets people off is the power curve -- as an example weapons IRL might come in cheap (a norinco 45) good (a colt 45) and custom (les baer custom shop) -- D&D weapons have 10 gradients plus hundreds of options with tangible effects.

To repeat -- magic items are stuff, no more special than non magic stuff in game context -- just more trouble to make.

They should be available anywhere there is a market for them. I am cool with wealth limits -- After all there are no Porsche dealers in Togo but any decent sized city will have anything a person might want to buy or have commissioned (if the market is small) .

Once the PC's reach high level they are powers unto themselves and can do (subject only to other high level types) anything they want -- this takes away the power of the state to regulate them as well, so legal codes often are ignored if anyone bothers with them -- possession is 9/10's of the law if you will

As powerful people they can get what they want. There is always someone willing to serve the strong. Low level types OTOH might need a patron.

 

[Quasqueton]

See, it's just glossed over. Doesn't mean there is a walmart ready to buy and sell magic items.

This is my point, and I think most have completely missed it.

Just because some things are available for purchase, doesn't mean they are sold through any kind of Walmart-like situation.

In most campaigns, everything in the PHB equipment list is available without any rigamarole. Player writes "backpack, rope, lantern, oil, holy water, alchemist fire" on his character sheet and subtracts off the gold cost. But no one says that stuff was bought at a Walmart-type store. It is assumed that the PC went to a general goods store, a temple, an alchemist's shop, etc. Maybe he went to several to round up all the items -- the first general goods store didn't have a backpack, so he ended up at a leatherworker's shop for it. The oil was purchased from a street vendor. The first temple refused to sell to a non-worshipper, so he had to buy from another. Etc., etc., etc. But the actual in-game effort is handwaved.

It's the same when the PC buys a warhorse or a sailing ship. Few DMs, if any, have a problem with skipping the play of locating a reputable horse trader, inspecting the animal, and then working out the payment method.

But if the PC buys a +1 sword, suddenly it's assumed to be just a trip to the local Magic-Mart. Why this assumption? In my games, purchasing that magic item means finding a broker or guild to either find the item or create the item. Or maybe, if the item is cheap enough, it can be found at an alchemist's shop, or at small "magic shoppe" (which also sells non-magical charms and trinkets for the commoners). But it is handled at the table, between DM and Player, just as buying a backpack. Unless there is some kind of adventure to be had in the search and purchase, we don't wasted valuable game time playing Shops & Shoppers. Why can't the purchase of magic items be handwave without this mental stumbling block and vocal complaint about turning things into a Walmart?

So, back to my point: If you don't assume that PCs sell and purchase their backpacks, oil, rope, spyglasses, horses, armors, and such from something like a Walmart, why is the Magic-Walmart concept argued when PCs can sell and buy magic items?

Again, just because something is "available" doesn't mean it is sitting on a store shelf. Why the double standard of assumptions between mundane items and magic items? Armor and weapons are "available" for purchase, usually without the DM getting involved in the deal, but no one assumes these are on racks in a big store.

Quasqueton

 

[Mark CMG]

This is my point, and I think most have completely missed it.

Just because some things are available for purchase, doesn't mean they are sold through any kind of Walmart-like situation.

I think people are trying to point out that you are the one who has actually missed the point. Taking the "Magic Walmart" phrase as literal, although in some cases it actually is, is where you have made your error. The use of such a term is just shorthand for any campaign where most or all magic items are available for purchase.

Did you really miss the point or are you just messing around here?

 

[kaomera]

Did you really miss the point or are you just messing around here?

I don't think it's entirely a matter of missing the point. Gamers do use terminology like this to insult games / gamers they don't agree with. Personally I try to just shrug and ignore it, but it can be really hard. Heck, the quote above wasn't really directed at me, and yet here I am replying...

I've recently had some interesting conversations with a fiend of mine who just plain does not like D&D. That's fine, but sometimes when she defends her position (which she shouldn't need to, really; but, again there are gamers out there with th idea that there way is the one true way) sometimes she makes generalizations that really aren't true of "D&D". When someone says that D&D is too complicated, that's fine. When they say it takes hours to make a character and try to defend the statement like it applies to every player / group out there, then I tend to want to "correct" that statement. Because it doesn't apply to me, and it doesn't have to apply to every player and every group.

 

[Quasqueton]

The use of such a term is just shorthand for any campaign where most or all magic items are available for purchase.

Then why do so many say things like, "PCs can purchase magic items in my campaign, but there are no Magic-Marts"?

From this very thread:

While there isn't a magic items Wal-Mart or any other kind of big box retailer there are lots of places that buy and sell magic items.

So I have "magic shops", which are usually temples, but they certainly aren't like Walmart.

Quasqueton

 

[Imp]

Why can't the purchase of magic items be handwave without this mental stumbling block and vocal complaint about turning things into a Walmart?

There's a difference between handwaving the interaction in real time and handwaving it in game time. Many of the proponents of the "buy anytime, anywhere" philosophy seem to wind up making those kinds of purchases more instantaneous and convenient (in game time) than analogous purchases (a car, a house, a boat, an antitank rocket) would be in real, modern life let alone a non-networked pre-industrial society, and that is where things get ridiculous.

If you have a month or two of game time between adventures to track down, verify the suitability of, and arrange the purchase of a magic sword for your character, that's easy to handwave. If you peel into a strange city on the heels of a fleeing cultist and expect to have available for handy purchase the best of the city's high-end magic items within a 48-hour stay, this is where the buy-anytime-anywhere notion gets strained. You may as well be able to pile your gold on an altar and have it directly transformed into sweet customized sorcery by the deity of your choice – it's actually one of the more plausible explanations for this kind of thing.

 

[Mark CMG]

I don't think it's entirely a matter of missing the point. Gamers do use terminology like this to insult games / gamers they don't agree with. Personally I try to just shrug and ignore it, but it can be really hard.

Oh, I'm not saying that some bit of attittude might not come along with such shorthand but I think Q actually is taking that to be a literal statement.

Then why do so many say things like, "PCs can purchase magic items in my campaign, but there are no Magic-Marts"?

I think in those cases they mean that they fall in between and it isn't just a matter of walking into a shop, but that for the right price and a great deal of effort, almost anything is for sale.