The Magic-Walmart myth

[Felix]

Assumes that this isn't handwaved/ignored, which, in light of many other aspects of the game, is probably not a fair assumption.

Oh, I handwave a good deal myself; notably exactly which shops the PCs might buy particular magic items. I was simply suggesting realities that would make the in-game existence of a Magical Wal-Mart legendary. Those realities may be subconsciously followed so as to make the existance of a large warehouse full of reasonably-priced magic rare in terms of actual campaigns.

There is no good source of data, to my knowledge, from which such conclusions may be drawn.

Considering that the results of any poll made would be disputed because any definition suggested for "Magical Wal-Mart" will be rejected by the opposition, I'd have to agree.

Yeah, but if you're going to start applying logic to a typical D&D fantasy world, it all falls apart anyway.

He asked for reasons, I suggest a few. Like I said, I handwave quite a bit of the item-purchasing anyway.

Put simply, there's far too much money and not enough inflation.

Inflation only occurs when there is a increase in the money supply, net of goods and services produced. So what if there is a lot of gold, as long as that supply of gold stays fairly consistent? The important thing is relative pricing: if a sword costs 5gp, does it make sense that a head of cabbage costs 20? The relative prices in the PHB seem reasonably well proportioned, certainly considering the abstraction that D&D economics is.

What's the motivation for anything, when there's huge wealth just lying around in holes in the ground? Why work 50 years building up a business only to see your nephew make that much money in single dungeon crawl?

I always figured it was because the PCs were extraordinary. The PCs might struggle through a dungeon, but it would be certain-death for 98% of the population. A 2% probability of success might make a lifetime of relatively safe labor more attractive, considering that the lifetime is likely to be much, much longer.

 

[Raven Crowking]

He asked for reasons, I suggest a few. Like I said, I handwave quite a bit of the item-purchasing anyway.

Actually, he asked for what information the conclusion that MagicMarts were legendary (presumably more than Very Rare on the old 1e Monster Frequencies? ) in actual games was based on.

That's very different than asking for a line of reasoning why MagicMarts might be rare or nonexistent within a campaign world.

 

[Felix]

So I started with a reasonable explanation of why it would be rare in-game, and suggested that if those reasons were by-and-large followed, it would then become rare in actual games.

 

[Raven Crowking]

So I started with a reasonable explanation of why it would be rare in-game, and suggested that if those reasons were by-and-large followed, it would then become rare in actual games.

Sure. But that's a mighty big "if".

 

[Jonny Nexus]

Inflation only occurs when there is a increase in the money supply, net of goods and services produced. So what if there is a lot of gold, as long as that supply of gold stays fairly consistent?

But if I take gold that's been buried in a hole in the ground for the last 1000 years and then introduce it into the economy, that is a big increase in the money supply, just as if a modern-day ruler prints a load of money.

The important thing is relative pricing

In a modern economy based on money, where money is an abstract concept used to measure varying levels of wealth and backed by confidence in legal and economic systems, true.

But in a primitive economy based on coins, where coins are a standard, measured quanitity of a rare and valuable material and have only value only by virtue of being constructed of a rare and valuable material, no.

i.e. in the modern day world I will happily sell you an ounce of gold for three one hundred dollar paper notes backed by the US government. But in a primative world, if you want me to sell you an ounce of gold you're going to have to give me a coin or coins which contain an ounce of gold.

Of course, all of the above only applies if you're looking for external logic, and I'm probably making a pedantic argument. If you merely (as I do) want your settings to be internally consistent, then yeah, broadly speaking you're right: relative prices are fine.

Although having said that, it would be more realistic, and much more atmospheric, to me if a gold coin was a very large sum of money (a year's wage for a peasant say), as used to be the case in our world. Cheap gold just doesn't seem right. If I was GMing a D&D game I'd be tempted to just divide both prices and incomes by a factor of ten at least.

I think part of the problem in the modern world, is that we are used to our standard units of currency being relatively worthless, with the averaging people earning many hundreds of them per week. Maybe the designers of D&D are making their prices fit that mindset.

Just as an aside, I had a search around and found a good site for comparing old and new UK prices (i.e. working out inflation).

http://measuringworth.com/calculators/ppoweruk/

For example, £1 in 1300AD is now worth £374.

(Although you have to take that with a pinch of salt due to the huge changes in the relative values of goods and labour and the fairer distribution of money).

 

[Felix]

No: IF is a really big "if".

Think of the demographic breakdown to see if that "if" is reasonable.

There's a split in the population concerning the availability of magic items in general. Those who strictly allow the DMG wealth-by-level guidelines, and those who limit the available items. Anyone who limits the availability of items in general is unlikely to have a reasonably-priced Magic Warehouse, so we can safely put that demographic aside.

So you have left folks whose PCs are equipped according to the DMG. Another division will be those DMs who supply their PCs' wealth-by-level with loot out of the dungeons, but don't let the PCs buy much.

A further division will be DMs who want their campaign world to have a very Mideval Europe feel; Ye Olde Shoppes will be much more common in these campaigns than Magical Discount Warehouses.

Fourthly, DMs who insist on a low-magic world (one where though the PCs may be equipped according to the DMG, magic items are rare in the world) will be unlikely to include a Magical Wal-Mart.

Campaigns which emphasize that magical items are heirlooms which have been around a long time will be less likely to have Magical Wal-Marts, because there will not be a current magic-item producing industry.

Finally, DMs who scale down the size of their cities: this may be due to a smaller populations; having the population spread out over more land; having the world being made up of islands instead of continents. The absence of metropolises will decrease the likelihood of the Magical Wal-Mart.

--------

I believe I ruled out a fairly large portion of campaigns just now, though I understand I haven't all.

What do we have left? We have campaigns which don't limit possession of or access to magical items, don't intensionally model Mideval Europe closely, have a moderate-to-high level of magic present in the world, have a thriving magic-item production commerce, and have large metropolises. Add to that the campaigns in which DMs place a Magical Wal-Mart purposefully, perhaps for its seeming contradictions, and you have the demographic that remains that needs be tested against the transactions cost assumptions I made.

 

[Raven Crowking]

No: IF is a really big "if".

I'm not questioning your reasoning; I'm questioning how many DMs follow your reasoning. Not that horribly long ago, on another "MagicMart" type thread, it was suggested by some that Eberron was a world based on the logical extension of D&D. While I disagree with the premise that Eberron is the only such possible world, it was interesting to note how many on that thread defended the concept of MagicMarts or Magic Walmarts as the logical extension of the core rules assumptions.

It could be that my memory is playing tricks on me (Crom knows that happens often enough these days! ) but it seems as though there as several people on this thread denying the existence of the same thing they viewed as a logical extension of the rules on that thread.

I'll have to see if I am still subscribed to that thread, and link. I could be mistaken.

 

[Felix]

But if I take gold that's been buried in a hole in the ground for the last 1000 years and then introduce it into the economy, that is a big increase in the money supply, just as if a modern-day ruler prints a load of money.

It's only significant if the amount of wealth found is large compared to the total wealth of the country.

If you're talking about a big country with hundreds of thousands of people, several large cities, and a well supplied army, 10,000gp might mean a whole lot to an individual, but have less of an effect on the aggregate economy than you expect.

In a modern economy based on money, where money is an abstract concept used to measure varying levels of wealth and backed by confidence in legal and economic systems, true.

But in a primitive economy based on coins, where coins are a standard, measured quanitity of a rare and valuable material and have only value only by virtue of being constructed of a rare and valuable material, no.

It makes no difference if we're talking about fiat money or specie; they function identically with regard to relative prices.

Assume that two tribes meet and buy and sell things with pearls. A deer will feed a family for a week, and a fish will feed a family for a day. Everything else equal, you would expect the deer to cost 7 times as many pearls as a fish. Personal preference, storage facilities, cooking facilities, size and weight of the food may change that relationship, but if the deer provides 7 times the utility as the fish, then the deer will cost 7 times as many pearls. This relationship is unaffected if there are 1000 pearls as the money supply, or 100,000.

Besides reducing transportation cost (easier to transport $10,000 than $10,000 worth of gold), the biggest difference between fiat money and specie is the reliance upon the law to enforce the payment of promissory notes; a significant difference is not in the economic function of the currency.

Although having said that, it would be more realistic, and much more atmospheric, to me if a gold coin was a very large sum of money (a year's wage for a peasant say), as used to be the case in our world.

I make all the prices based off of silver pieces instead of gold. So a sword that costs 10gp would cost in my campaign 10sp, or 1gp. This is merely for flavor, and here I agree with you on the atmosphere.

 

[maddman75]

The point is that in our Thursday night campaign, any character could - off camera - purchase any item whatsoever, including custom-designed items and spells cast upon the person, wherever we were. I stated my opinion that the only way this would be possible would be if there were a chain of huge magical superstores that sold magical swords like golf superstores sell golf clubs. (I also envisaged that poisons and potions would be sold in nicely labelled jars with colour coded lids much like you get racks of Schwartz herbs and spices at your local supermarket). I suggested that this chain of superstores was called Joe's Adventure Barn, and would often state that my character was going to Joe's to pick up some stuff.

If you don't stop with the Wal-Mart analogies I'm going to start having underpaid magic shop workers try to push an extended warranty any time they buy a sword and make them do Dex checks to get the child-proof caps off their healing potions.

And when my players start throwing dice at me it will be ALL YOUR FAULT!

 

[Felix]

Not that horribly long ago, on another "MagicMart" type thread, it was suggested by some that Eberron was a world based on the logical extension of D&D. While I disagree with the premise that Eberron is the only such possible world, it was interesting to note how many on that thread defended the concept of MagicMarts or Magic Walmarts as the logical extension of the core rules assumptions.

It could be that my memory is playing tricks on me (Crom knows that happens often enough these days! ) but it seems as though there as several people on this thread denying the existence of the same thing they viewed as a logical extension of the rules on that thread.

I'll have to see if I am still subscribed to that thread, and link. I could be mistaken.

I am only moderately familiar with Eberron, but I believe that the assumption is that there is a copious amount of low-grade magic present, with high-level magic being fairly rare. If you define a Magical Wal-Mart as a large box warehouse store that makes every item in the DMG available, Eberron still doesn't do that.

There may be stores that sell many reasonably-priced items derived from Prestidigitation, but claiming that Eberron is a logical extension of the rule set and that Magical Wal-Marts is not a logical extension is not necessarily a contradictory stance.