The Magic-Walmart myth

[Odhanan]

Given that a certain side of this conversation seems to have a vested interest in controlling the terminology of others, or preventing them from expressing different views (i.e., "pokemounts are childish" if they hold that view), I'd say that the purpose of a conversation very much depends upon who you ask.

I think that, the Internet being the Internet, it is impossible to control the terminology used by others, and much less to prevent them from using some words or others. That does not mean, however, that there is no merit in discussing the matter and promoting a sort of awareness as to what the words might mean for different people and the necessity on message boards to word an argument cautiously to convey the meaning we want to convey.

The key here, I think, is awareness, and the will to actually acknowledge that other people don't understand the same words the same way we are, and further, that it doesn't make them "wrong" in the context of a particular conversation, which stresses the importance of understanding the others points of view to then word our own arguments using a terminology that reaches a maximum level of understanding between each and everyone involved in the conversation.

IOW, it isn't to me about censure. It's about empathy.

 

[Hussar]

Given that a certain side of this conversation seems to have a vested interest in controlling the terminology of others, or preventing them from expressing different views (i.e., "pokemounts are childish" if they hold that view), I'd say that the purpose of a conversation very much depends upon who you ask.

IOW, I read Squire James' comment as being directed against the "wrongbadfun police".

Ummmm, no. Please stop misquoting me.

I never said that you cannot disagree with an idea. What I am saying is that using loaded terminology is a bad idea. You can certainly use that terminology, but, then, don't complain when you are misunderstood.

Or, to put it another way, I have no problem with the idea of "great clomping nerdism". Therefore, you shouldn't either. It's simply a descriptive term which denotes an overreliance on detail over substance. You should entirely ignore the connotations contained within the sentence since that's not what I mean.

See how it works? Wow, I can say anything and then pooh pooh people's reactions.

Oh, you asked when magic Walmarts would have descriptive value. IMO, never. It's simply too loaded a term to use with any value. I suppose if you had a campaign in which the company Walmart actually existed and sold magic items, then it might be fine, since it actually exists as a concrete idea. However, as a descriptive term, it's vague and without any real value other than to agitate.

 

[Hussar]

*snip*

For instance, "The implication here is that any element with the "poke" prefix is also a children's thing, and, as such, only appeals to those whose tastes are the same as a child's. "

Poke-x has no such implication for me and therefore is simply a shorthand for the slightly distasteful handling of 3.5 Paladin Mounts.

The point that you seem to be missing here though is that it doesn't matter that you don't find the term antagonistic. Of course you don't, you're the one using it, assuming you're not trolling. I would hope that people would use terms that they don't personally find insulting. That makes sense. The point is, OTHER people find the term distasteful and see it as a wrongbadfun attack on how they game. If someone likes how 3.5 handles the paladin's mount and sees other people comparing it to something that is intended for children, then they can easily think that you are comparing their tastes to that of a child's. Not many people appreciate being told their tastes are childish.

The next step in your chain.. "anyone who likes the 'poke whatever' lacks maturity " is, IMHO, also a stretch. There are many great things that are targeted towards kids. The book "The Phantom Tollbooth" is one such wonder that I love to be able to read to my daughter.
Interestingly enough, that book would be good reading for those embroiled in this discussion as the entire book is crammed with vague buzzwords that lead to nonsensical stuff... like the 'Whether Man'...

So, in your opionion the fact that this childs book appeals to me means that I lack maturity.... and somehow this means the games I run are wrongbadfun? eh, nevermind...

Sorry Jack. Your posting on a board that caters to a dresses up version of Make Believe and, if mature enough to admit it, everyone here would agree that thier inner child enjoys this hobby of ours.

And as a side note, you do realize that Tolkien's best sellers were targeted towards children?
Unless you happen to run a Screwtape Letteresque game.. that would be interesting.

"Whether man" has no connotative meaning. Therefore it cannot really be taken as insulting or anything else. Saying that a paladin't mount is a Murkle won't raise any feathers simply because the word has no connotative associations. I adore LOTS of children's literature.

I would point out that someone who likes Pokemon would likely be simply confused by the idea of Pokemount. You are using it, in your own words, to show distaste. But, to someone who likes Pokemon, that term would not mean what you think it means. It would be showing appreciation. "Wow, you think that a paladin is like a character from Pokemon? Hey, that's a cool idea!"

So, again, your use of buzzwords simply confuses meaning. To someone who likes the mechanics but doesn't like Pokemon, you come off as condescending. To someone who likes Pokemon and likes the mechanic, you come off as complimentary. To someone who doesn't like the mechanic but likes Pokemon, you come off as antagonistic since you are saying that Pokemon is bad. Only to those who think like you, don't like the mechanic and don't like Pokemon does your meaning come clear.

So, you have four potential audiences, three of which will mistake your meaning and the only one that understands you agrees with you in the first place. That's not exactly effective communication.

 

[NilesB]

One may not understand where negative conotations for Magic WalMart and Pokimount come from. Unless you are discussing the term itself it doesn't matter where those negative feelings come from - they exist and that is the important thing.

The negative connotations come from the people who coined the terms, they were conceived as pejoratives.

 

[jdrakeh]

The negative connotations come from the people who coined the terms, they were conceived as pejoratives.

I have to agree. They're right up there in the same bracket with such deliberate perjoratives as "3etard" (one which still irritates me to no end), terms coined specifically to insult people who like certain things but in such a way that they can be disingenuously passed off as "jokes" after the fact. Deliberate insults followed by claims of attempted humor are anything but humorous and, IMHO, doubly insulting.

 

[Shadeydm]

I don't think there is a more loaded term being used in this thread than wrongbadfun, its the messageboard equivalent of playing the race card to win an argument. OMG he said I have wrongbad fun!!!! Um no, he said the game designer did a crappy job, nice try thanks for playing.

 

[Gentlegamer]

Well, that'll rather instantly make anyone who dislikes the current paladin's mount have a harder time expressing that dislike. They won't be able to say that it reminds them of....well, anything, because we remove the terms pokemount, anime, pokemon, etc. That will certainly make things more comfortable for some.

It would seem there's a certain Ministry of Truth mindset at work here that would like to do that very thing . . .

 

[Gentlegamer]

That term "straw man" is a loaded term. Don't use it.

As Maud'dib may put it, he who can destroy a conversation has control of a conversion...

Dood! I just started re-reading Dune again!

 

[Raven Crowking]

Ummmm, no. Please stop misquoting me.

Odd. The post you clipped that from has no quote from you, incorrect or otherwise.

Please stop implying that I am misquoting you.

 

[Raven Crowking]

It would seem there's a certain Ministry of Truth mindset at work here that would like to do that very thing . . .

No kidding.

I don't think there is a more loaded term being used in this thread than wrongbadfun, its the messageboard equivalent of playing the race card to win an argument. OMG he said I have wrongbad fun!!!! Um no, he said the game designer did a crappy job, nice try thanks for playing.

No kidding.

Or how about the "You're misquoting me" card used on a post that doesn't quote you?

Or how about the "insulting the 3.5 paladin's mount is equivilent to insulting other posters" card (i.e., pokemount is like 3etard)?

Straw men, and all answered ad infinitum ad nauseum upthread.

And still, I note, no answer to what criteria would have to be met to claim "MagicMart" valuable as a descriptive term. Wonder why?