The Magic-Walmart myth

[irdeggman]

There are settings where magic item availability is supposed to be low. Birthright and Dark Sun for two, although in Dark Sun they are supposed to be "different" not necessarily not there - oh and "hidden" since wizardly magic is associated with defiling and in general "frowned on" if not outright "hated".

So in these type of settings there should be no easy way of getting magic items, unlike other setttings like FR, Greyhawk or Eberron (where it is a commercial enterprise by the way - magic is a commodity and part of way of life of most residents, especially in Sharn).

In Birthright there are supposed to be far fewer people capable of casting greater magic (and thus creating magic items) by setting design.

In Dark Sun they are supposed to be more reclusive and except for the elven markets (elves will pretty buy and sell anything they can get their hands on) they are underground and thus much more rare than would be in "other" settings.

IMO the term Magic Walmart refers to a "high magic item" world where it is relatively easy to find (and dispose of) magic items of most types. It can be unfortuneatly deragatory though.

 

[Maldor]

i see alot of people pointing to XP cost like they are a big deal but just one (cr 1) monster gets you over 7000 gp worth of crafting XP and you can craft that in 7 days then sale it compared to the years of work doing a non-magic carft to make that much.
and the thay shops have a price limit on the stuff they make yes with a good deplomicy and a waiting list you can get more expensive stuff but being albe to comission expensive items just makes common sense i you are willing to pay for it you can buy almost anything

 

[green slime]

...(Lots of fancy demographic calculation, depending on city size, all taken from the rules.)...

Anyway, that's my take.

And yet.

Magic items have existed in the game world for eons. Take FR, Eberron, or GH.

There aren't lots of fancy rules to describe how long a magical blade will last. Whether it will rust in the rain, get bent when slicing through armour, and heaps of other mundane wear-and-tear rules. Basically because they aren't much fun, and it is a part of the genre: ancient swords, borne by famous swordsmen through the ages. Fantasical, Mythical, & Magical.

So if the entire planet consists of, say 100 million sentient creatures (a low estimate considering the fact that sentient beings exist underground in massive communities (drow, duergar, illithids, aboleth,...) as well as below the seas (mermen, sea elves, sahuagin,...)), and if we assume that over the past 10,000 years, our fantasical planet has seen maybe 100 billion sentient creatures (apart from those visiting from beyond the sphere/phlogiston/other planar entities/divinities), how many +1, +2, +3, +4 & +5 swords would you expect to see lying around? Given this glut of almost nondestructible items, wouldn't you expect to see people giving them away?

Just be happy you see them +5 vorpal holy avengers in Walmarts, and not being given away by farmers for seed.

 

[Midknightsun]

And yet.

Magic items have existed in the game world for eons. Take FR, Eberron, or GH.

But magic items get used (charges, one shots, etc) and destroyed. Additionally, not everything that's made is found after centuries or eons . . . especially at the same time

There aren't lots of fancy rules to describe how long a magical blade will last. Whether it will rust in the rain, get bent when slicing through armour, and heaps of other mundane wear-and-tear rules. Basically because they aren't much fun, and it is a part of the genre: ancient swords, borne by famous swordsmen through the ages. Fantasical, Mythical, & Magical.

Again, I just don't see how applying a little internal consistency and a moderate baseline of reality suddenly = not fun, or suddenly becomes overwrought. It really doesn't. I've never really had any of my players say anything like that, and for the record I run 2 campaigns . . . one of which I was begged to run, so I got no shortage of people who apparently think things ARE indeed fun with my view of things. I do also have magical "stores" or whatnot, I just don't see even the basic logic in the "everything is available" idea . . . . not to mention what someone said before about players even knowing that half this stuff exists. YMMV

So if the entire planet consists of, say 100 million sentient creatures (a low estimate considering the fact that sentient beings exist underground in massive communities (drow, duergar, illithids, aboleth,...) as well as below the seas (mermen, sea elves, sahuagin,...)), and if we assume that over the past 10,000 years, our fantasical planet has seen maybe 100 billion sentient creatures (apart from those visiting from beyond the sphere/phlogiston/other planar entities/divinities), how many +1, +2, +3, +4 & +5 swords would you expect to see lying around? Given this glut of almost nondestructible items, wouldn't you expect to see people giving them away?

Not really. Its actually fairly easy to destroy magic, even by 3.5 rules (as long as their not in someone else's hands). Even then, sunder is pretty rough. Doesn't take more then a well placed fireball or two to incinerate all the magic on a fallen character (often, this isn;t even intentional)

Just be happy you see them +5 vorpal holy avengers in Walmarts, and not being given away by farmers for seed.

Lol, yeah that would pretty much kill me right there, but I don't think saying "it could be worse" really helps the issue. The caveat here is that, if your group is fine with the whole idea of getting whatever you can afford, then have at it. I personally hate the idea, and don't think the rules even support the availability they claim.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I'll bite.

Show me.

Show you what? People calling it snobbish? That's upthread.

People claiming it makes sense to have MagicMarts? If I did the search and pulled up examples, would that change your mind? Heck, you can go upthread for that, too.

 

[Shadeydm]

I think people keep focusing on opposite ends of the spectrum to make their points in this thread. You can make any of these outlooks on the topic work in your campaign if you are willing to account of the consequences of your choice.

IMC PCs can find shops that have a limited inventory of magic items as well as alchemy shops to buy potions etc. I would not consent to PCs being able to walk into a shop and buy a +3 keen shocking burst greatsword of wounding. OTOH I wouldn't have a problem with a PC dropping off his +3 great sword of wounding to get a keen enchatment or a shocking burst enchantment added to it. It might seem like petty distinction but it is an important one to the flavor of the game world I created.
I would never allow a holy avenger to be bought in a magic store and I don't think such a distinction in any way breaks the game. If a PC has the weath and appropriate level to own one and really wants it then there will be other avenues to coming into possesion of one. Perhaps gather rare or dangerous components to have one made. Perhaps a quest or series of quests to locate or free one from the clutches of evil. Maybe the church has one locked up awaiting the chosen one to fulfil prophecies before they give it over then all the PC has to do is start making those prophecies happen.
Buying one off the shelves of a store blah no thanks.

*edited because typing is not a class skill for me.

 

[green slime]

Lol, yeah that would pretty much kill me right there, but I don't think saying "it could be worse" really helps the issue. The caveat here is that, if your group is fine with the whole idea of getting whatever you can afford, then have at it. I personally hate the idea, and don't think the rules even support the availability they claim.

Who claims? I've never had anyone "claim" that at all.

The point being:

1) nobody expects a walmart.
2) players ask if they can find a certain object, given the time available, and the city size, the DM adjudicates whether or not it is available, and for what "price."

Mature players don't bemoan the DM when told the sought after object isn't found (for whatever reason). They suck it up and move on. Major cities like Waterdeep or Greyhawk are more likely to have rarer objects.

Bottom line: it all comes down to the whim of the DM.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Show you what? People calling it snobbish? That's upthread.

People claiming it makes sense to have MagicMarts? If I did the search and pulled up examples, would that change your mind? Heck, you can go upthread for that, too.

Show me what you consider a "MagicMart."

If it's anything like Green Adam's post, I don't really understand why it's a problem in most campaigns (though it certainly may be a problem for some specific campaigns who treat magic less like the psedo-science D&D treats it like as a default). If it's a more crudely drawn stereotype of 20th Century capitalism in action, I can perhaps see a problem for most campaigns, but I don't see any real examples of the literal "WalMart of magical items" being posted, either.

In absence of the latter, I'm inclined to say that "MagicMarts," as they exist in the heads of many who would decry them, don't really exist except for those who want to belittle the idea of magic item purchasing by mocking it (which is a fairly "snobbish" thing to do, I feel).

With the presence of the former, I'm inclined to say that, when available, "magic items traded for gp" tend to be great opportunities for PC's to meet eccentric sages, get hooked into plots about magic and dungeons, know that there's a world beyond them (other adventurers who have had other adventures and gained their power), and, perhaps most simply, to be able to customize a large portion of their character's power to their own imaginations. And I fail to see why any of that is necessarily something to be avoided.

 

[Raven Crowking]

1) nobody expects a walmart.

Except, of course, for those who do? Go upthread, and you'll see that people specifically posted that they played in games that, in effect or in actuality, had magic marts.

2) players ask if they can find a certain object, given the time available, and the city size, the DM adjudicates whether or not it is available, and for what "price."

Unless, of course, the DM uses the MIC, where he is instructed to tell the players Yes.

Seriously, though, the city size and the time available are not, and should not be the only factors involved. Let's use a mundane item, like a ship, for example. You wouldn't expect to be able to buy a ship in the largest of cities if it is landlocked. IMC, there are mundane items that one cannot always pick up. If one is in the lands of the Alderhald or the Bearfolk, the people aren't technologically proficient to create a spyglass, no matter how much you offer them. Platemail, anywhere, can only be bought on commission....if there is someone there capable of making it.

Of course, in my world too you can buy some magic items. Mostly you can commission them from individual artisans. You pay upfront, and you may be required to supply power components. IMC, the means of creating any given item is a Secret, and every crafter has a limited number of Secrets. Therefore, not every item is available from every crafter, and Secrets are jealously guarded. Wresting the Secret of creating Item X might be an adventure in and of itself, and finding the secret libraries of wizards is interesting again.

 

[Midknightsun]

Who claims? I've never had anyone "claim" that at all.

The point being:

1) nobody expects a walmart.
2) players ask if they can find a certain object, given the time available, and the city size, the DM adjudicates whether or not it is available, and for what "price."

Mature players don't bemoan the DM when told the sought after object isn't found (for whatever reason). They suck it up and move on. Major cities like Waterdeep or Greyhawk are more likely to have rarer objects.

Bottom line: it all comes down to the whim of the DM.

I was referring to the default claim of the DMG, not anyone in particular. No need for you to take offense.

1) All I need to do is find one person who does indeed expect to get anything they can afford, a la WalMart, and I've shot down this claim. Sure you want to hold onto that?

2) Sure, I have no problem with this. Its when players DO whine and point to their DMG as to how they should be able to find the "mighty macguffin of cause internal bleeding on the DM" per the DMG, that we have problems. Not all whining is a drop on the ground, kick in the air, coniption either. Grownups usually default to less overt methods. The default setting greatly encourages getting what the might GP can buy. As a DM can I say NO to such and such an item? Sure, and I have now and then. But the default assumption greatly entitles players to expect to get anything they want as long as the town's wealth guidelines allow it, regardless of the other things that are going on in the Campaign.

If I'm reading your last paragraph here right, I'm not sure we are really disagreeing with each other, so much as disagreeing on each other's word choice.

Mature players do indeed play along, as long as they feel their DM isn't being a complete jerk. However, I've come across more than a few mature people who are surprisingly immature players. You don't often realize it until you're neck deep into a campaign.