The Magic-Walmart myth

[Doug McCrae]

All I need to do is find one person who does indeed expect to get anything they can afford, a la WalMart

Being able to purchase anything you can afford, given time, is not the same thing as a Magic Walmart. The phrase 'Magic Walmart' conjures up the image of a single vast store containing many, many magic items ready to be sold.

This is why the term is misleading and should not be used.

 

[green slime]

Please note that I didn't say that it was impossible. I said "You wouldn't expect to be able to buy a ship in the largest of cities if it is landlocked". Those are two different things. There may be a noble in Landlocked City who has a deed to a ship, but there equally well may not be. It very much depends upon how far the reach of the nobility in that city goes. Even in a city with ports, there is not always a ship available for sale (although one could presumably have one built).

True. But expectation is only limited by the fantasy of the expecter. Realistic expectations are best left at the door. This is DnD we are talking about, after all.

 

[Felix]

Reading this thread is like watching two singles tennis players have a match on two different courts. MidnightSun and his proponents keep saying, "There are no Magic Wal-marts; they don't make sense!" Quasqueton and his supporters keep saying, "There are no Magic Wal-marts, we just don't roleplay tracking down Ummba-Chula the Mysterious who is reputed to collect famous fantastical swords of heroes when we want to buy a +1 flaming sword."

Oddly, both sides are saying the same bloody thing. Quit banging your heads against the wall.

---

The question of how many magic items are available in a city is something else. But ask yourself, why would someone continuously craft magic items? Certainly Wizards have the most cost intensive career: that 13th level Wizard needs 700gp worth of stuff to scribe one 7th level spell in his spellbook. Where does he get 700gp? Well, possibly he knows the lower-level wizards or is their master, so he could easily get 700gp by scribing some lower-level spells for them and their spellbooks. So now you've got Wizards scribing stuff: scrolls become available on the market.

Why would potions be available? The government is interested in keeping their troops alive, and the 13th level cleric is interested in spreading the word of Dog. The government gets their cure-lights for the platoon's medic, and the cleric makes his 3rd level novices and 6th level apprentices brew a few potions.

Why would armor be available? In this mideval fantasy, you'll likely have some kind of a feudal feudal system so let's assume that. Cavalry was fairly important in warfare, and it took a lot of money to keep a knight in full kit. So it isn't a stretch to say that knight will be fairly wealthy on the whole, and that some of them will be very wealthy indeed. You'll have knights interested in armor that offers them better protection, and this will give incentives to money-seeking casters to create a Craft Magic Arms and Armor commissioning system.

The same will be the case for weapons, wands, rods, rings and sundry. Folks who have the ability to craft but don't have money will meet up with people who have the money but can't craft, and by the exchange both will come off better off.

Does this mean that NPCs will be spending XP making things? Yes. And they'll make that XP back the same way they did the first time. But unless you spend time every session updating the group as to the adventuring successes of all your NPCs, this story isn't about them: it's about the PCs.

Does this mean that it's likely that many things won't be available immediately? Yes. Neither are sailing ships, as Quasqueton keeps pointing out.

Does this mean that it's possible to find people who collect +1 Can-openers of Speed who would be willing to part with one for a price? Yes. It may take a long time to locate them without the convienience of EBay, but that's why we have a Gather Information skill.

Do players enjoy role-playing the search for Ummba-Chula, the tension-fraught negotiations, and the satisfaction found in spending an hour of real-time coming away with a potion of Cure Light Wounds? *shrug* I don't. Do you?

 

[Raven Crowking]

So, then, your campaign has MagicMarts, too, right?

I have run games with them. Again, the easiest example was the Arcane from 2e. They were an official MagicMart in a game that officially suggested you don't have MagicMarts.

These artisans are places PC's can go to obtain nearly any magic item (within the limits of the secrets that artisan knows) for near the list price (plus any "power components") in the DMG, right? The whole "secrets" thing tends to limit individual artisans, but taken as a whole, the artisans can presumably make a lot of magic items.

No. If all of the artisans were located in one place (such as Waterdeep in FR), then you could make that claim. If the artisans within a given location knew how to make nearly any magic item, then you could make that claim.

Likewise, if your game has a shop that sells some scrolls, and a church that sells some potions, but you have to travel 100 miles to get a magic warhammer, which wasn't already made for you, and which you couldn't be certain the artisan you sought would make for you, then I wouldn't claim that this was an example of a MagicMart in your game, either.

But FR and Eberron at least both have places that the PC's can go to obtain magic items for the DMG price (specifically, you have artificers and dragonmarked houses in the latter, and Red Wizards in the former). Greyhawk is the world implied by the DMG, so it seems they have "magicmarts" too (limited by town size and available NPC's and the like). So I'm not so sure that's the same definition the OP uses when he doubts their existence.

Well, then, I suppose Q's definition ought to be given. Until he defines what he means specifically, we can only go by our own definitions.

 

[green slime]

Oddly, both sides are saying the same bloody thing. Quit banging your heads against the wall.

Spoilsport

 

[Midknightsun]

Probably. I may just be suffering from work boredom, the secondmost common emotion experienced at work. In which case, please ignore my incoherent ramblings.

I'd kill for boredom . . . its just that my ADHD keeps me from doing that contract I should be finishing up right now . . . . at least that's my story.

Being able to purchase anything you can afford, given time, is not the same thing as a Magic Walmart. The phrase 'Magic Walmart' conjures up the image of a single vast store containing many, many magic items ready to be sold.

Not the same, but not far off. However, the issue was walmarts in general, not ways DMs use to allay or lessen the sense of entitlement to instant gratification (which is fine now and then too, I suppose) Indeed, saying something will take time is a useful in game device to show the PCs had a work a bit for it.

Yet, another way is simply saying NO. Really folks, its not a bad word. Cats won't start chasing dogs. The world won't implode. Your game won't suddenly have all the fun sucked out of it, despite some claims to the contrary. Character concepts won't fall apart because said item isn't freely flowing around the campaign world like internet pictures of Brittany Spears sans hair.

However, the phrase of mine that you quoted was in reference to GS's claim that nobody expects a walmart, which he later qualified as saying IMX, which I have no problem with. Its just that the initial claim was rather all-encompassing. Bringing time into the equation is another issue.

Oddly, both sides are saying the same bloody thing. Quit banging your heads against the wall.

I would, if someone would take the sign off the wall of my office that says "bang head here".

 

[I'm A Banana]

No. If all of the artisans were located in one place (such as Waterdeep in FR), then you could make that claim. If the artisans within a given location knew how to make nearly any magic item, then you could make that claim.

Likewise, if your game has a shop that sells some scrolls, and a church that sells some potions, but you have to travel 100 miles to get a magic warhammer, which wasn't already made for you, and which you couldn't be certain the artisan you sought would make for you, then I wouldn't claim that this was an example of a MagicMart in your game, either.

So it has to be a single discreet location in the campaign?

Does it count if you just abstract it all by saying "You go into town and can re-supply your magic items," assuming that you go to a temple for your Cure Light Wounds potions and an Akademy for your Magic Missile wands and a dwarven priest-smith for your +1 sword (assuming the town can support it, of course)? Because there's not one location in the game, but there is in the playing experience, in this case.

The core rules, at least, suggest that this is more the case. Even a setting as rich in magitek as Eberron doesn't have a single warehouse, they have competing families and differing town sizes (most of which don't have high level NPC's).

What about something like Sigil or other grand planar metropoli where critters like Mercane/Arcane hang out (effectively, almost without a GP limit)? They have a Market Ward where you can get almost anything, but they don't always keep it on-hand, and where it's not just one salesman...is that a MagicMart if abstracted, but not if drawn out?

Well, then, I suppose Q's definition ought to be given. Until he defines what he means specifically, we can only go by our own definitions.

Well, if I were to use the mighty power of deductive reasoning, I'd say that Q is implying that giant magical warehouses of magic items from Apparatus of Kwalish to Zombie Powder are aberrant, and so those who complain about them should at least be more accurate, because the term "Magical WalMart" meaningless, if what they are railing against only appears in campaigns that are actually out of the norm anyway.

This would be consistent with his argument, while a definition such as yours (that seems to make MagicMarts relatively common, if all the above examples apply) isn't. It would also be consistent with several posters who claim that "MagicMarts" were used for humor value or for tongue-in-cheek campaigns, but who nevertheless might have mundane places where people can obtain magic items in their own campaigns. Even if it is abstracted to such a level where the DM simply says: "The GP limit of the town is X, you can buy any magic item below X GP, sell stuff up to Y GP. Go change your character sheets, I'm going to use the restroom," it doesn't necessarily imply one physical warehouse location in the setting, I think.

 

[Raven Crowking]

However, the phrase of mine that you quoted was in reference to GS's claim that nobody expects a walmart, which he later qualified as saying IMX, which I have no problem with. Its just that the initial claim was rather all-encompassing. Bringing time into the equation is another issue.

Which is, btw, actually the main problem with the OP.

I would say that there are settings in which MagicMarts (or equivilent) are required, btw. A truly Victorian Fantasy setting should have shops that sell souped up bicycles and motorcars, after all. A Fantasy Western setting should include the sale of magic guns and ammo. If the feel of the time you are attempting to portray (pastiche, mimic, whatever) includes mass-production, then perhaps magical doo-dads should be for sale.

Games that mimic Westerns (and we all know there's more than one out there ) could well have trading posts that sell "magic guns and ammo" in the form of swords and potions. That wouldn't be my cup of tea at this point, but if it was skillfully handled, it wouldn't be a game-breaker for me, either.

RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

So it has to be a single discreet location in the campaign?

Does it count if you just abstract it all by saying "You go into town and can re-supply your magic items," assuming that you go to a temple for your Cure Light Wounds potions and an Akademy for your Magic Missile wands and a dwarven priest-smith for your +1 sword (assuming the town can support it, of course)? Because there's not one location in the game, but there is in the playing experience, in this case.

I would say, Yes. The town effectively becomes a gigantic Warehouse of Holding.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I would say, Yes. The town effectively becomes a gigantic Warehouse of Holding.

So if one just abstracted your magical artisans, and said "Okay, in this big city, you can find any vendor who doesn't manufacture wonderous items given a week," wouldn't that be the same thing?

So, wouldn't it be accurate to say that for you, MagicMarts are just when people don't pay attention to the little details of shopping for magic items that can make them memorable? Whenever buying magic is as easy as buying rations, it becomes a MagicMart?