Kaptain_Kantrip
First Post
I bought Geanavue and really appreciate the level of detail that went into this product. It is even more detailed than the old 1e Lankhmar: City of Adventure (my yardstick for measuring how useful a city setting is). The doublesided city/undercity map is beautiful and a brilliant idea--interior art is fine--I dislike the cover but that's a minor quibble as far as I'm concerned (art being subjective and all).
I have stated some of the good things I like about this product in previous posts, so now that I have read the book more thoroughly, I would like to point out some of the problems I have found with it (no offense to the fine folks at Kenzer!).
The main problem I have with Geanavue after reading it is that there is not much conflict going on...
Everybody loves the ruler.
Everybody loves each other... The few that don't are either largely ineffective in fomenting any serious (city-wide) trouble or if they are in a position of power, are more wrapped-up in their own affairs than in any truly outrageous schemes that endanger the city. A few want the ruler's son to take over so they can manipulate him--pretty standard fare--but their manipulations still run toward their own mercantile interests than in using it to start a war, trade embargo, or anything. A few evil cultists also hope to manipulate the ruler's son, but even then, it is just to popularize, legitimize and expand their own church interests (and wealth), not anything major as mentioned above.
There's hardly any crime, and no organized crime to speak of.
There is no ghetto in the city walls (one called Loona is provided several miles away where cargo is loaded/unloaded for transport). The ghetto has one (slim) chapter devoted to it and was the only interesting chapter for me in the whole book... Unfortunately, it is not mapped, and Kenzer wants us to buy it (Loona) as a separate supplement in September... which I probably will do, but am not happy about. I would much rather have gotten the map and info in one product (seeing as how closely related they are) and paid an extra $5-10 than wait six months and shell out another $15-25. To me, it drastically reduces the utility of the setting not to have all the info at once and in the same place.
There is a guarded public toilet on pretty much every street corner... we don't even have that in the 21st century... how likely is this in a medieval or renaissance city?
Many names are either stupid or too difficult to pronounce, such as Foobia (stupid, IMO) or aauranadoruum (too many syllables, have to think about how to say it, does not roll off the tongue). This a major flaw in the KoK setting, as far as I am concerned!
The main bad guys threatening the city are fire giants up in the nearby mountains, but not to worry! The city is protected by friendly stone giants!
Don't forget the legions of dwarven axemen and gnomish crossbowmen on patrol!
There are (barely mentioned) pirates (not very far off on their island base) and undead (Giilia, City of Bats ruled by an elven vampire). But the most trouble from the vampire's realm is starving peasants that sneak across the border to steal food each winter? Um, if they go to all that trouble to get across the border, why don't they just stay in Geanavue and not live in fear of the undead anymore? And if I had a major pirate base just off my shores, I would send the navy in to smash them to flinders and ensure the stability of my shipping lanes. The surrounding "bad guys" don't make sense to me. Okay, there's the fire giants up in the hillls but chances are high the PCs will have no interaction with them outside of hack-n-slash. Fire giants themselves (who cannot enter the city) leave very little possibility of political intrigue, diplomacy, or any of the things that make city adventures fun.
All said, Geanavue seems rather bland and politically correct (another problem I have with KoK's setting in general) compared to every other major city supplement I have run (Ruins of Zhentil Keep, Freiburg, Lankhmar, Town of Baldemar, Deeptown [3 days to kill], City of Greyhawk).
Geanavue does provide a stable, relatively safe and peaceful environment, which is apparently the point of it, but I prefer my settings to be "edgier" (more rife with crime, poverty and conflict, like the real world and most other fantasy settings) and less "PC." I am not sorry I bought Geanavue, but I am a bit irked I will have to do as much tweaking to get it to fit my campaign style. It's a shame that so much detail went into such a boring place. I had a hard time reading the book, as I kept hoping to discover some major conflict or conspiracy that never materialized... It put me to sleep (okay, not passed out, but lots of yawns--my co-DM felt the same, though we both really wanted to like it more than we ended up liking it). That's not to say we dislike it... but we now face a major project in "fixing" Geanavue to get our $25 worth out of it... A project that will be worth it in the long run, as I like the map and the level of detail, but it's just not usable "off the shelf." Removing things that irritate me (stone giant protectors, guarded public toilets) is much easier than replacing or creating new ones (names, whole areas like slums, secret conspiracies, organized crime, etc.). I am thinking I will just use Baldemar as Loona, and lift large sections of Zhentil Keep, Freiburg and Lankhmar to fill in the details I want for Geanavue).
I think Geanavue will certainly work fine "as is" for some, but not for me or anyone else who wants a "grittier" setting. I don't regret the purchase, I just wish it wasn't so much darn trouble to "fix" it. Worst case scenario, I have a cool new city map, LOL. I don't think it will come to that, though.
Kenzer has shown they can put out a really detailed (and otherwise excellent) city supplement, now if they can just give us more "grit" and less blandness... Geanavue is the first Kenzer product (not just Kalamar) product I have ever bought. None of their other material has appealed to me in the slightest, though I give each new release a good skim-through at the store when they come out, just to be safe, which is how I found Geanavue. I may end up getting the new Kalamar Player's Guide (for the non-setting specific feats and goodies), and will probably pick up Loona and any other supplements with some "grit" to them.
Overall, I am impressed with Kenzer's production quality and product support, and with their responses to my (and other people's) comments and criticisms here on the ENB. They seem like good folks trying to put out good product. We may just have to agree to disagree on the level of "grit" their products contain.
I have stated some of the good things I like about this product in previous posts, so now that I have read the book more thoroughly, I would like to point out some of the problems I have found with it (no offense to the fine folks at Kenzer!).
The main problem I have with Geanavue after reading it is that there is not much conflict going on...
Everybody loves the ruler.
Everybody loves each other... The few that don't are either largely ineffective in fomenting any serious (city-wide) trouble or if they are in a position of power, are more wrapped-up in their own affairs than in any truly outrageous schemes that endanger the city. A few want the ruler's son to take over so they can manipulate him--pretty standard fare--but their manipulations still run toward their own mercantile interests than in using it to start a war, trade embargo, or anything. A few evil cultists also hope to manipulate the ruler's son, but even then, it is just to popularize, legitimize and expand their own church interests (and wealth), not anything major as mentioned above.
There's hardly any crime, and no organized crime to speak of.
There is no ghetto in the city walls (one called Loona is provided several miles away where cargo is loaded/unloaded for transport). The ghetto has one (slim) chapter devoted to it and was the only interesting chapter for me in the whole book... Unfortunately, it is not mapped, and Kenzer wants us to buy it (Loona) as a separate supplement in September... which I probably will do, but am not happy about. I would much rather have gotten the map and info in one product (seeing as how closely related they are) and paid an extra $5-10 than wait six months and shell out another $15-25. To me, it drastically reduces the utility of the setting not to have all the info at once and in the same place.
There is a guarded public toilet on pretty much every street corner... we don't even have that in the 21st century... how likely is this in a medieval or renaissance city?
Many names are either stupid or too difficult to pronounce, such as Foobia (stupid, IMO) or aauranadoruum (too many syllables, have to think about how to say it, does not roll off the tongue). This a major flaw in the KoK setting, as far as I am concerned!
The main bad guys threatening the city are fire giants up in the nearby mountains, but not to worry! The city is protected by friendly stone giants!
Don't forget the legions of dwarven axemen and gnomish crossbowmen on patrol! There are (barely mentioned) pirates (not very far off on their island base) and undead (Giilia, City of Bats ruled by an elven vampire). But the most trouble from the vampire's realm is starving peasants that sneak across the border to steal food each winter? Um, if they go to all that trouble to get across the border, why don't they just stay in Geanavue and not live in fear of the undead anymore? And if I had a major pirate base just off my shores, I would send the navy in to smash them to flinders and ensure the stability of my shipping lanes. The surrounding "bad guys" don't make sense to me. Okay, there's the fire giants up in the hillls but chances are high the PCs will have no interaction with them outside of hack-n-slash. Fire giants themselves (who cannot enter the city) leave very little possibility of political intrigue, diplomacy, or any of the things that make city adventures fun.
All said, Geanavue seems rather bland and politically correct (another problem I have with KoK's setting in general) compared to every other major city supplement I have run (Ruins of Zhentil Keep, Freiburg, Lankhmar, Town of Baldemar, Deeptown [3 days to kill], City of Greyhawk).
Geanavue does provide a stable, relatively safe and peaceful environment, which is apparently the point of it, but I prefer my settings to be "edgier" (more rife with crime, poverty and conflict, like the real world and most other fantasy settings) and less "PC." I am not sorry I bought Geanavue, but I am a bit irked I will have to do as much tweaking to get it to fit my campaign style. It's a shame that so much detail went into such a boring place. I had a hard time reading the book, as I kept hoping to discover some major conflict or conspiracy that never materialized... It put me to sleep (okay, not passed out, but lots of yawns--my co-DM felt the same, though we both really wanted to like it more than we ended up liking it). That's not to say we dislike it... but we now face a major project in "fixing" Geanavue to get our $25 worth out of it... A project that will be worth it in the long run, as I like the map and the level of detail, but it's just not usable "off the shelf." Removing things that irritate me (stone giant protectors, guarded public toilets) is much easier than replacing or creating new ones (names, whole areas like slums, secret conspiracies, organized crime, etc.). I am thinking I will just use Baldemar as Loona, and lift large sections of Zhentil Keep, Freiburg and Lankhmar to fill in the details I want for Geanavue).
I think Geanavue will certainly work fine "as is" for some, but not for me or anyone else who wants a "grittier" setting. I don't regret the purchase, I just wish it wasn't so much darn trouble to "fix" it. Worst case scenario, I have a cool new city map, LOL. I don't think it will come to that, though.
Kenzer has shown they can put out a really detailed (and otherwise excellent) city supplement, now if they can just give us more "grit" and less blandness... Geanavue is the first Kenzer product (not just Kalamar) product I have ever bought. None of their other material has appealed to me in the slightest, though I give each new release a good skim-through at the store when they come out, just to be safe, which is how I found Geanavue. I may end up getting the new Kalamar Player's Guide (for the non-setting specific feats and goodies), and will probably pick up Loona and any other supplements with some "grit" to them.
Overall, I am impressed with Kenzer's production quality and product support, and with their responses to my (and other people's) comments and criticisms here on the ENB. They seem like good folks trying to put out good product. We may just have to agree to disagree on the level of "grit" their products contain.
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