The many types of Sandboxes and Open-World Campaigns

[Mezuka]

Classic Travekker doesn't have XP.

I looked up Classic Travekker and couldn't find it. I want to know more!

 

[aramis erak]

I looked up Classic Travekker and couldn't find it. I want to know more!

There's a reason my avvie is a psychedelic rendition of the MegaTraeller Starburst... (Which, in case people don't know, the shatter in it is in fact a factions map...)

 

[Guest 85555]

It doesn't have to be, or have to be present at all.

As to the rest: motivating players to engage the sandbox is the best way to keep it a sandbox. Some players come fully motivated. Others less so. Recognizing what kinds of rewards motivate players and using that knowledge is an important GM skill.

One thing I learned is you do have to start building the sandbox towards what they are doing. I had a group passing through a city, suddenly start taking over local restaurants and wine shops. To that point I hadn't considered minutia in that particular city like what groups/gangs/factions control what territory, what criminal groups tax local businesses for protection, etc. If you want it to be truly open, and the players go that direction, you need to start developing those details if you don't have them already (and probably start thinking about them more broadly in the setting). If they go in and bust a restaurant but it doesn't really change anything, have any real consequences, or produce any meaningful result, then the players won't feel like they can truly do what they want (or at least try).

 

[hawkeyefan]

One thing I learned is you do have to start building the sandbox towards what they are doing. I had a group passing through a city, suddenly start taking over local restaurants and wine shops. To that point I hadn't considered minutia in that particular city like what groups/gangs/factions control what territory, what criminal groups tax local businesses for protection, etc. If you want it to be truly open, and the players go that direction, you need to start developing those details if you don't have them already (and probably start thinking about them more broadly in the setting). If they go in and bust a restaurant but it doesn't really change anything, have any real consequences, or produce any meaningful result, then the players won't feel like they can truly do what they want (or at least try).

What do you mean “develop those details”? Like in response to what the players show interest in generally? Or in response to that specific instance?

If it’s in response to the specific instance, then you can’t really prep it ahead of time, right? So do you generate these things in a procedural manner (tables and rolls, etc.) or do you just use your own ideas, drawing on genre/tropes and previously established elements?

 

[Guest 85555]

What do you mean “develop those details”? Like in response to what the players show interest in generally? Or in response to that specific instance?

If it’s in response to the specific instance, then you can’t really prep it ahead of time, right? So do you generate these things in a procedural manner (tables and rolls, etc.) or do you just use your own ideas, drawing on genre/tropes and previously established elements?

it is a combination of both as needed for me. But everyone is going to handle the detail creation differently. You can't predict what players will do during play. If they decide to start taking over restaurants, you need to come up with information about the restaurant owners, people who they are friends with, protectors, enemies, revenue, illegal side businesses, etc. That is stuff you might have to make on the fly (I try when I make things on the fly to be delibate and take very good notes). But once the session is over, you then definitely need to start expanding on those details, thinking more and creating more in that area.

In terms of how it is established. That is a matter of taste. For me I like using my judgement in combination with tools: things like tables, dice rolls, etc. Sometimes I need tools to jostle me out of patterns for example or because I just want some amount of randomness. So I may say to myself as I roll a d10: if high then the place is protected by a criminal organization, if low it isn't----that sort of thing. But I could just as easily decide that.

Also I was talking about responding to a specific instance that arises in the game

 

[Thomas Shey]

Okay. I see. But I will say that milestone leveling can sometimes become "Mother May I Level?" when it's unstructured or detached really from player character action. It's sometimes only attached to the whims of the GM, deciding when they think is best. I'm not a fan of milestone leveling that amounts to "GM says."

Sure, but like I said, its easy for it to be more structured than that without getting into experience point counting.

For something similar to what you mention, Shadow of the Demon Lord uses the completion of the adventure/module, with adventures being categorized in four level-based tiers: Starting (Level 0), Novice (Levels 1-2), Expert (Levels 3-6), and Master (Levels 7-10). One benefit of this structure is how it tends to shut up the "How much XP do we get for that?" and "Have we earned a milestone level now?" players. You get a level once the adventure is done.

It was, in fact, one of the two systems I was thinking of (the other, as I've mentioned, is Fragged Empire and its kin).

This is likely not, however, a progression structure that I would use for sandbox or open world games. As mentioned before, as a result of survival video games I am now more inclined towards providing diagetic rewards for the character progression treadmill.

Well, that's your choice but I still stand by my opinion that if you need a metagame carrot (which XP fundamentally is) to motivate the players (rather than an in-game one to motivate the characters) fundamentally the players may not really want to be in that kind of campaign.

 

[Thomas Shey]

That said, it's not without skill improvement... that's just painfully slow (multiple character years kind of slow).

Originally it only existed in the form of training, however, which seemed oddly counter factual.

 

[Reynard]

One thing I learned is you do have to start building the sandbox towards what they are doing. I had a group passing through a city, suddenly start taking over local restaurants and wine shops. To that point I hadn't considered minutia in that particular city like what groups/gangs/factions control what territory, what criminal groups tax local businesses for protection, etc. If you want it to be truly open, and the players go that direction, you need to start developing those details if you don't have them already (and probably start thinking about them more broadly in the setting). If they go in and bust a restaurant but it doesn't really change anything, have any real consequences, or produce any meaningful result, then the players won't feel like they can truly do what they want (or at least try).

A GM can't run a sandbox without being able to wing it, at least for a bit. Players do themselves and the GM a service by trying to articulate their intentions early, though.

As to consequences, that's spot on for every style of game IMO. You can't glhave real agency without consequences and agency is what separates tabletop RPGs from all other forms.

 

[Reynard]

Originally it only existed in the form of training, however, which seemed oddly counter factual.

Trying to model how people learn and grow, as well as backslide, is beyond the capability of any RPG system I have ever seen.

 

[Aldarc]

Well, that's your choice but I still stand by my opinion that if you need a metagame carrot (which XP fundamentally is) to motivate the players (rather than an in-game one to motivate the characters) fundamentally the players may not really want to be in that kind of campaign.

I'm not advocating for XP or metagame carrots here, though it's possible that we have a difference opinion about what constitutes the latter. I am proposing here in-game rewards, hence "diagetic," much like in survival games (though not all). In a number survival games, you need to find materials, recipes, and supplies in order to survive and upgrade your gear/base/character. But acquiring those things requires open world engaging in open world exploration and facing dangers. Lather, rinse, repeat. This is the in-game progression treadmill rather than XP.