The many types of Sandboxes and Open-World Campaigns

[Reynard]

You fail to fulfill your vow and get no XP. It's a harsh world! Note that it's possible to bring him back alive and healthy and still fail the dice roll to finish your quest, in which case something new comes up that you have to deal with. (You as the player get to make that up, or you can ask the GM to do it.)

I like it! Failure as a possible outcome (but isn't a play ender) adds stakes to the game, IMO.

 

[payn]

That's interesting. Like if the adventure started off with a local begging the heroes for help because their brother was missing, and the PC says, "I swear I will bring him back safely," and goes through the whole adventure only to have the brother die on the way back to town, what happens?

The PCs still went on the adventure. They likely did social/exploration/combat things even though they failed in the ultimate goal. They still learned/experienced things. That shouldn't result in no XP/reward.

I like it! Failure as a possible outcome (but isn't a play ender) adds stakes to the game, IMO.

These things can haunt the PCs. Perhaps they just lost goodwill with the town? They no longer have the support they were hoping for the next bigger adventure? Perhaps, nothing immediately, but eventually, this beggar returns at the least opportune time for the PCs to complicate future adventures?

I know players don't like failing, but it can have interesting impact on the campaign and PC stories. Part of the fun for the GM is deciding what comes out of that success/failure (from the setting perspective) for the players.

 

[Reynard]

The PCs still went on the adventure. They likely did social/exploration/combat things even though they failed in the ultimate goal. They still learned/experienced things. That shouldn't result in no XP/reward.

I think it is an interesting thing for players to set their own stakes and if they fail in that regard, they lose on the XP they "bet" for the task.

These things can haunt the PCs. Perhaps they just lost goodwill with the town? They no longer have the support they were hoping for the next bigger adventure? Perhaps, nothing immediately, but eventually, this beggar returns at the least opportune time for the PCs to complicate future adventures?

I know players don't like failing, but it can have interesting impact on the campaign and PC stories. Part of the fun for the GM is deciding what comes out of that success/failure (from the setting perspective) for the players.

I could not agree more. Setbacks are what make for interesting stories (and just to be clear, I mean emergent stories, not preplanned ones, in the context of RPGs). I do find that many players have trouble rolling with losses, though.

 

[niklinna]

The PCs still went on the adventure. They likely did social/exploration/combat things even though they failed in the ultimate goal. They still learned/experienced things. That shouldn't result in no XP/reward.

I'm just describing how the rulebook does. It would be easy to hack it for a lower XP reward. But, there's already provision for lesser XP on a weak hit. The odds of an outright failure on the dice roll when you complete the objectives are low, but they aren't zero. Plus, when you fail in that way, the quest rank gets bumped a notch so when you do finally finish it, you get more XP for the trouble.

For the situation where the brother actually dies, well, that's the end of that particular vow (and likely the beginning of another, to get vengeance or something). But again you could hack that to award some XP.

These things can haunt the PCs. Perhaps they just lost goodwill with the town? They no longer have the support they were hoping for the next bigger adventure? Perhaps, nothing immediately, but eventually, this beggar returns at the least opportune time for the PCs to complicate future adventures?

Oh yeah, Ironsworn has all that.

I know players don't like failing, but it can have interesting impact on the campaign and PC stories. Part of the fun for the GM is deciding what comes out of that success/failure (from the setting perspective) for the players.

Ironsworn being inspired by Apocalypse World, failure generally does make things more interesting!

 

[niklinna]

By the by, Ironsworn supports GM-less co-op and solo play, and it's free, so you can check out how that all works without having to scrape a group together.

 

[overgeeked]

By the by, Ironsworn supports GM-less co-op and solo play, and it's free, so you can check out how that all works without having to scrape a group together.

I spotted that. The way it’s handled seems a bit complicated according to the text, but it’s a great idea. I suspect adapting the concept to other games would be fairly simple.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Heart: The City Beneath has a pretty great system for advancement. Each PC has a Calling, which is the reason they’ve become a delver. Each Calling has a list of Beats, divided by tier (minor, major, or zenith). These are goals or events of some sort that the player should try to achieve.

Each session, the player picks two Beats to try and complete. When they complete one, they get a new ability corresponding to the level of the Beat (minor, major, or zenith). The difficulty or impact of achieving a Beat varies by its tier. Zenith abilities are difficult to achieve and essentially spell the end for the character.

The Beats work well because they give the player specific goals to shoot for, and also because they give the GM ideas of what to include in play. It’s a great system that really helps to drive play.

 

[aramis erak]

But that's the thing. The players can't "win" D&D. So trying to is a waste of time. The characters can succeed or fail at given tasks. But the closest thing to a "win" condition D&D has is playing the game. But that's a whole other can of worms we don't need to get into.

Thats quite untrue. The defined "victory condition" in rules is a good time was had for all.

Many competitive types set goals that they consider a win. They can have a personal victory that isn't shared, and often isn't even communicated to the other participants.

One of the more common ones across several versions is character optimization; it goes back to mid AD&D1E, as the number of meaningful choices in character generation and advancement rose, most notably with the addition of more weapon proficiency spend options, and the OA/WSG/DSG introduced Non-Weapon proficiencies. AD&D 2E added a lot more options. it's been with ever since. It got pretty bad with the rise of array as the dominant method for attribute generation.

And, of course, modules provide an implicit win condition, whether they mention it or not: complete the module.

 

[Yora]

I got a specific question about a problem I am currently facing.

I am once again feeling inclined to actually run a real campaign using the Forgotten Realms region book Unapproachable East, which has patiently been staring at me from the shelf for the last 19 years!
As I imagine the region, it has landscape and culture influences from the Eurasian Steppe around the Black Sea and Caspian Sea, with the Carpathian and Caucasus Mountains. That means plenty of grassland and scattered forests of small pines and birches. Two thousand years ago, most of the region was part of the Narfell Empire that summoned and controlled many powerful demons, and some smaller sections belong to the Raumathar Empire ruled by evil sorcerers. Eventually the two wiped each other out with their dark magic, the surviving Nars becoming horse nomads and new people slowly moving into the area. It specifically states that Nar citadels where usually small bulky keeps on the surface with massive underground tunnels beneath them and that there are still many demons trapped inside the subterranean ruins. I also see this is a great region to have lots of old burrial mounds haunted by the wights of ancient sorcerers. So plenty of opportunity to open up ancient ruins not disturbed for over a thousand years with all kinds of horrors and treasure's inside them. There's also Nar and Rashemi barbarian tribes, and Red Wizards of Thay and Witches of Rashemen to interact and tangle with. This actually makes me think of some Conan and especially Elric stories, and while Forgotten Realms has developed somewhat of a deserved reputation of pastoral quaintness, I think this region could be quite well suited for a more pulpy savage take on Faerûn.

Actually, I want to to The 13th Warrior as a whole campaign.

For reasons of convenience, I am leaning towards taking 5th edition out for another spin for such a campaign. People know that one well, and with Forgotten Realms I'm not feeling a particular need to make it an oldschool hexcrawl experience or anything of this kind. This is a setting build around settlements and NPC factions, and so I feel it should be played with plenty of town adventures and dealing with important people.
However, I really don't want to do the whole Quest-Giver-of-the-Week thing ever again. I'm done with writing stories about villains that need to be stopped for the players. I still want it to be a much more open ended thing where the players have a 1000x1000 miles area to romp around in. And I don't have any clue how to start.

What I have decided on is that there will be large numbers of low level warriors around in most settlements, as it's just not the barbarian way to hide in your hut and hope for heroes to arrive when you get raided by goblins or starving wolves stroll through the streets. That kind of stuff they can deal with themselves. On the other end, I think wizard should be both very rare but very prominent. When every single wizard is a big deal, it might work out to have magic be both special and powerful without actually having large quantities of magic in the campaign.

But the big question is how to give the campaign a structure. Telling the players they have a million square miles to do what they want and there's a some 20 prepared dungeons in it won't work. I guess they could still be treasure hunters, looking for old Narfell dungeons whose locations are known to local villages, but that nobody has ever dared going far into. Even when your village does have a 3rd level barbarian and six 2nd level fighters, that doesn't mean they can simply stroll in and claim all the treasures for themselves. But would that be enough? I think people interested in a 5th edition campaign in an established setting might be hoping for a bit more than that.

 

[payn]

I got a specific question about a problem I am currently facing.

I am once again feeling inclined to actually run a real campaign using the Forgotten Realms region book Unapproachable East, which has patiently been staring at me from the shelf for the last 19 years!
As I imagine the region, it has landscape and culture influences from the Eurasian Steppe around the Black Sea and Caspian Sea, with the Carpathian and Caucasus Mountains. That means plenty of grassland and scattered forests of small pines and birches. Two thousand years ago, most of the region was part of the Narfell Empire that summoned and controlled many powerful demons, and some smaller sections belong to the Raumathar Empire ruled by evil sorcerers. Eventually the two wiped each other out with their dark magic, the surviving Nars becoming horse nomads and new people slowly moving into the area. It specifically states that Nar citadels where usually small bulky keeps on the surface with massive underground tunnels beneath them and that there are still many demons trapped inside the subterranean ruins. I also see this is a great region to have lots of old burrial mounds haunted by the wights of ancient sorcerers. So plenty of opportunity to open up ancient ruins not disturbed for over a thousand years with all kinds of horrors and treasure's inside them. There's also Nar and Rashemi barbarian tribes, and Red Wizards of Thay and Witches of Rashemen to interact and tangle with. This actually makes me think of some Conan and especially Elric stories, and while Forgotten Realms has developed somewhat of a deserved reputation of pastoral quaintness, I think this region could be quite well suited for a more pulpy savage take on Faerûn.

Actually, I want to to The 13th Warrior as a whole campaign.

For reasons of convenience, I am leaning towards taking 5th edition out for another spin for such a campaign. People know that one well, and with Forgotten Realms I'm not feeling a particular need to make it an oldschool hexcrawl experience or anything of this kind. This is a setting build around settlements and NPC factions, and so I feel it should be played with plenty of town adventures and dealing with important people.
However, I really don't want to do the whole Quest-Giver-of-the-Week thing ever again. I'm done with writing stories about villains that need to be stopped for the players. I still want it to be a much more open ended thing where the players have a 1000x1000 miles area to romp around in. And I don't have any clue how to start.

What I have decided on is that there will be large numbers of low level warriors around in most settlements, as it's just not the barbarian way to hide in your hut and hope for heroes to arrive when you get raided by goblins or starving wolves stroll through the streets. That kind of stuff they can deal with themselves. On the other end, I think wizard should be both very rare but very prominent. When every single wizard is a big deal, it might work out to have magic be both special and powerful without actually having large quantities of magic in the campaign.

But the big question is how to give the campaign a structure. Telling the players they have a million square miles to do what they want and there's a some 20 prepared dungeons in it won't work. I guess they could still be treasure hunters, looking for old Narfell dungeons whose locations are known to local villages, but that nobody has ever dared going far into. Even when your village does have a 3rd level barbarian and six 2nd level fighters, that doesn't mean they can simply stroll in and claim all the treasures for themselves. But would that be enough? I think people interested in a 5th edition campaign in an established setting might be hoping for a bit more than that.

Magic is rare and powerful you say? Maybe, there is lost archaic knowledge sitting out in the wilds to be found. Lost to time, or defended by powerful guardians? It's both treasure hunting and exploration along with power seeking.