D&D 4E The math behind power attack and why it needs to be redone in 4e

[Wolfwood2]

But if you had missed by one point (or four), then Power Attack would have hurt you. And examples like this are why people overestimate the benefit of PA; you usually remember the times when it worked and did a ton of damage, but not the times you just barely whiffed and so did none.

I disagree. There's nothing wrong with my memory, and I have a firm grasp on what benefits my character. Considering I was dealing with ACs of around 20 (or less), you'll find I was making the smart call.

The fact is that power attack is a mechanically beneficial feat to have, and with proper use it can ensure that a PC defeats opponents faster than without it. It's ridiculous that this can even be under debate after seven years of mechanical experimentation with the system by tens of thousands of players.

 

[The Little Raven]

It's ridiculous that this can even be under debate after seven years of mechanical experimentation with the system by tens of thousands of players.

It's been 7 years of debate, not 7 years of agreement.

 

[mmadsen]

I disagree. There's nothing wrong with my memory, and I have a firm grasp on what benefits my character.

I don't think it was meant to be a dig at your intelligence but a remark about a well-known cognitive bias: it's much easier to remember when power attack works, because that's exciting, than it is to remember when it doesn't, because that's a non-event.

It's ridiculous that this can even be under debate after seven years of mechanical experimentation with the system by tens of thousands of players.

It's quite obvious from the discussion on this forum, which includes perhaps the best-educated D&Ders out there, that power attack has not been studied by most players, and that their gut instincts are not backed up by the math.

Power attack can be used to increase combat effectiveness -- when to-hit probability is high and damage is low -- but it can also easily reduce combat effectiveness, and it's not immediately obvious to everyone which effect they're getting.

 

[drothgery]

I don't think it was meant to be a dig at your intelligence but a remark about a well-known cognitive bias: it's much easier to remember when power attack works, because that's exciting, than it is to remember when it doesn't, because that's a non-event.
It's quite obvious from the discussion on this forum, which includes perhaps the best-educated D&Ders out there, that power attack has not been studied by most players, and that their gut instincts are not backed up by the math.

Exactly. And I'm as guilty of that as anyone; I'll often encourage the player of the fighter/barbarian in my group to Power Attack when she's got a high (but not only-miss-on-a-1) chance of hitting even though I know, in the abstract, that it's probably a bad idea. And sometimes that causes her to miss a few iterative attacks. Which is a really big deal when said iterative attacks are being made by a raging 18th-level fighter/barbarian with a greatsword.

 

[Nifft]

gut instincts are not backed up by the math.

This, IMHO, is the worst sin of Power Attack. The replacement should actually do what it looks like it does.

Cheers, -- N

 

[neceros]

Sounds like Power Attack as we know it is gone. No longer a feat.

 

[Hussar]

I think a point that Najo made very early is pertinent. When you can raise your hit bonuses to the point where you only miss on a one, Power Attack becomes VERY attractive. The thing is, that's not terribly hard to do. Between buffs, magic weapons, bards, etc, jacking up a fighter's attack bonus to AC+20, isn't out of reach. Suddenly, you can smack in lots of power attack.

But, really, it's the two handed power attack that makes the difference. Losing a shield? Who cares? At best that's +7 AC and at those levels, the added AC is far less useful than the added damage. Two weapon fighting is the red headed step child of combat with even worse to hit chances than the Power Attacker.

Just a note though, people have talked about power attacking with knives - can't. No light weapons with power attack.

 

[mach1.9pants]

Power Attack is a deleted feat in my game, the only reason anyone ever got it was to get cleave {i}et al[\i]....
OT: mmmm Cleave in 4E, more enemies therefore more cleaves, will still be my fighter feat of choice

 

[Hussar]

Really? Cleave? I've never seen any fighters take this feat. It just seems so ... situational. You have to drop an opponent and a second one has to be in reach. This isn't a common thing IME, where you frequently face one opponent, or multiple opponents spread out because of reach/size.

 

[Particle_Man]

Part 2: Situational Ethics

Situation 4: Coup de Grace!