The Mathematical Model of the d20 System

[GlassJaw]

But the party goes through 4 encounters per day -- the 4th encounter's EL can't assume a fresh party!

Of course it does. CR/EL is a fixed value - a constant. CR and EL assume the party is at full strength but it doesn't really care if they aren't. The DM should and the players should but as Wulf pointed out, if CR and EL changed based on the party's strength or remaining resources, it would be a constant moving target and therefore useless as any kind rating system.

It's like saying the distance of a foot changes depending on how much a person weighs. The length of a "foot" of measurement wouldn't be a constant anymore.

Edit: I basically repeated what Wulf said but I was late. He also used the word "frakkin", which made his point far more effective than mine.

 

[Nifft]

Look, this is very simple. Take your 4e character and walk into the first room in the dungeon.

Can you or can you not, if you so choose, use everything you've got? Burn through your dailies, burn through your per encounters, and then burn through your at-will.

I don't CARE whether or not "going nova" in 4e means you'll be at 0% or 75% in the next encounter. It's irrelevant.

Well, that's a change in terminology. Originally (in Psionics) "going nova" meant you had almost zero options left, because you'd expended all your power points (or "all your frakkin power points", if you prefer). "Going nova" often left the player with zero options for the rest of the fight, forget the rest of the day. Think of it as a Barbarian whose Rage ran out. He's not back to square one, he's hosed.

And no, in 4e you cannot "burn through" your at-wills. They're not going to run out. You cannot hose yourself for the rest of the fight, or the rest of the day.

CR/EL has no frakkin clue how many encounters you have already had, nor does it have any clue when the party is going to decide to retire for the day.

This is where we assume different things about the game's design. I recall hearing the designers state that the party was assumed to be taking on about four encounters each day. Thus, the CRs should have been designed and tested around the idea that they have to work when the party is fresh, and they have to work after around three previous encounters of similar CR.

Of course the first encounter is easier and the last one is harder. That's irrelevant, unless you assume CRs were only tested on fresh parties. But why assume that? I know that 4e testing doesn't focus on "one fight per day, fresh party only".

Do you, as a DM, have any actual mechanics, any tools at all, for interpreting what EL5 means after 1, 2, 3, or 6 encounters? No.

Not after 6, but you're wrong about 1, 2 and 3. CR is CR, up to the 4th encounter.

Is this a math thread, or a thread for parroting back the "common wisdom" or the "marketing" of the design?

Gee, I wonder. I brought up some scaling issues regarding DR, SR and incorporeality, and this is what you've chosen to discuss.

So you frakkin' tell me what the frakkin' thread is about.

-- N

 

[BryonD]

And no, in 4e you cannot "burn through" your at-wills. They're not going to run out. You cannot hose yourself for the rest of the fight, or the rest of the day.

Honest question here: Did you miss his point? Or did you choose to ignore it?

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

This is where we assume different things about the game's design. I recall hearing the designers state that the party was assumed to be taking on about four encounters each day. Thus, the CRs should have been designed and tested around the idea that they have to work when the party is fresh, and they have to work after around three previous encounters of similar CR.

Really? You recall what you heard the designers state about their intent? The designers of 3e? The 3e that is broken beyond repair and headed for the remainder bins? I'd say that makes your recollection about 4 degrees of B.S.

Just trying to get a baseline on your working knowledge.

Not after 6, but you're wrong about 1, 2 and 3. CR is CR, up to the 4th encounter.

Don't tell me what you've been told, tell me what you KNOW.

CR is CR, after the first encounter or fifty. It is referential to the fresh party because that is the common baseline. It is a predictor of outcomes for combat, and combat only, between fresh combatants of the listed CR/Level.

Gee, I wonder. I brought up some scaling issues regarding DR, SR and incorporeality, and this is what you've chosen to discuss.

Actually, I chose NOT to discuss this, and keep getting re-engaged on it. If you don't want to talk about it, by all means, don't prolong the conversation to demonstrate your knowledge of the system-- sorry, "your recollection of what the designers said they meant for the system to do." I am more than happy NOT to have that kind of conversation.

 

[Set]

Random thought;

Would 2d10 instead of 1d20 radically change the game at this point? Criticals would likely be extremely rare (barring weapons / features that had a threat range greater than just a roll of 20), but rolls in general might curve a little better, rather than having a 5% chance of every possible result from 1 to 20 every time you throw the die.

Obviously this would never happen, since the game is 'd20' after all...

 

[Nifft]

Honest question here: Did you miss his point? Or did you choose to ignore it?

I guess I missed it. In my mind, concepts like "nova" conflict with concepts like "at-will".

I'll go back and read the thread again. :\

Cheers, -- N

 

[Nifft]

Really? You recall what you heard the designers state about their intent? The designers of 3e? The 3e that is broken beyond repair and headed for the remainder bins? I'd say that makes your recollection about 4 degrees of B.S.

Just trying to get a baseline on your working knowledge.

Wow, you went for the personal attacks fast.

To answer your (rhetorical?) question: yes, really, and I can probably still up those discussions / blog entries / articles on the web, if you (or someone else) actually cares.

Don't tell me what you've been told, tell me what you KNOW.

Okay. In my experience playing 3.5e, CR is accurate for 4-5 encounters per day. At one expected encounter per day, the listed CRs start out reasonable (below level 5), but starting at level 5 and increasing as the party's levels go up, the CR of an encounter which is expected to be the only encounter in a day is an underestimate. In other words: as PCs get higher in level, a fresh party who expect not to have to fight later can reliably take on higher EL encounters, the difference increasing as they increase in character level.

(Note that expect is emphasized for a reason.)

Actually, I chose NOT to discuss this, and keep getting re-engaged on it. If you don't want to talk about it, by all means, don't prolong the conversation to demonstrate your knowledge of the system-- sorry, "your recollection of what the designers said they meant for the system to do." I am more than happy NOT to have that kind of conversation.

You'd rather have a "conversation" of personal attacks? Go to the Circvs, and I'm sure someone will oblige you.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Look, this is very simple. Take your 4e character and walk into the first room in the dungeon.

Can you or can you not, if you so choose, use everything you've got? Burn through your dailies, burn through your per encounters, and then burn through your at-will.

I don't CARE whether or not "going nova" in 4e means you'll be at 0% or 75% in the next encounter. It's irrelevant.

Actually, you can't burn through all your resources. You can't "trigger" all your Healing Surges during combat, since the options to do so are limited.

CR/EL has no frakkin clue how many encounters you have already had, nor does it have any clue when the party is going to decide to retire for the day.

When you see "EL5" printed in the module, the ONLY thing that number purports to be reflective of is a fresh party. It purports to be quantifiable, and, with a fresh party, it largely is.

(Mostly at low level. And as long as you have a largely homogenous group of creatures. And as long as they don't outnumber the PCs by more than 4 to 1 or so... But I digress.)

Do you, as the DM, know that it is going to be tougher if the party is worn down? Yes you do. But no longer in a quantifiable way.

Do you, as a DM, have any actual mechanics, any tools at all, for interpreting what EL5 means after 1, 2, 3, or 6 encounters? No.

Tell me:

What is the CR of an orc?

What is the CR of an orc if he appears in the 2nd encounter of the day?

The third?

The fourth?

The CR and the EL of an Orc stays constant (I believe it is 1/2, but I didn't check it. It's getting late here...)
The 3E system uses a simple benchmark: How many resources of the theoretically maximum possible resources need (or are expected) the characters to expend for an encounter with the monster (or group of monsters). If it's 20-25 %, this means it should be equal to the party level (assuming standard party size yaddayaddayadda).

(I think 4E just changed the ~20% to ~80%, with the advantage that you can get these 80 % back after each encounter...)

 

[BryonD]

Actually, you can't burn through all your resources. You can't "trigger" all your Healing Surges during combat, since the options to do so are limited.

The barbarian can not use all his rages in one combat, so there goes that myth....

or maybe the point is a bit more complicated

 

[BryonD]

I guess I missed it.

Maybe so.

In my mind, concepts like "nova" conflict with concepts like "at-will".

yep, you missed it.