D&D 5E (2024) The Most Meta Party to Make the DM Cry?

If you want AoE-control, you can have two spellcasters cast something like Evard's Black Tentacles and Web, but how effective that is does depend a bit on the DMs interpretation.

Web says "The first time a creature enters the webs on a turn or starts its turn there, it must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or have the Restrained condition while in the webs or until it breaks free."

and

"A creature Restrained by the webs can take an action to make a Strength (Athletics) check against your spell save DC."

Evard's Black Tentacles says "Each creature in that area makes a Strength saving throw. On a failed save, it takes 3d6 Bludgeoning damage, and it has the Restrained condition until the spell ends. A creature also makes that save if it enters the area or ends it turn there."

and

"A Restrained creature can take an action to make a Strength (Athletics) check against your spell save DC, ending the condition on itself on a success."

If a creature is restrained by both spells, it depends on whether the DM allows that creature to break free from both spells with one Strength (Athletics) check at the same time or if they can only break free from one at a time. The rules say "A condition doesn’t stack with itself; a recipient either has a condition or doesn’t." But the rules don't say whether the creature can break free from all sources that cause the same condition at the same time or whether the creature has break free from all sources of the condition independently. If the latter is the case and they failed the initial save against both spells, then the only way they get out is by breaking free from Web on their turn with a Strength (Athletics) check while remaining restrained by Evard's and then, on their next turn avoid being restrained again by Web by succeeding on the Dex save and succeeding on a Strength (Athletics) check to break free from Evard's.

Another nice combo is any spell that creates Difficult Terrain, like Hunger of Hadar, and Plant Growth. Plant Growth says "A creature moving through that area must spend 4 feet of movement for every 1 foot it moves.", meaning that it does not create Difficult Terrain itself and therefore, it stacks with difficult terrain. If you now cast Hunger of Hadar on top of Plant Growth, each foot they move now costs them 5 feet of movement, meaning that with an average of 30 feet of movement, they can move only 6 feet on their turn while being blinded within Hunger of Hadar. And with the right invocations, a Warlock could ensure they never get out.
 

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If you want AoE-control, you can have two spellcasters cast something like Evard's Black Tentacles and Web, but how effective that is does depend a bit on the DMs interpretation.

Web says "The first time a creature enters the webs on a turn or starts its turn there, it must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or have the Restrained condition while in the webs or until it breaks free."

and

"A creature Restrained by the webs can take an action to make a Strength (Athletics) check against your spell save DC."

Evard's Black Tentacles says "Each creature in that area makes a Strength saving throw. On a failed save, it takes 3d6 Bludgeoning damage, and it has the Restrained condition until the spell ends. A creature also makes that save if it enters the area or ends it turn there."

and

"A Restrained creature can take an action to make a Strength (Athletics) check against your spell save DC, ending the condition on itself on a success."

If a creature is restrained by both spells, it depends on whether the DM allows that creature to break free from both spells with one Strength (Athletics) check at the same time or if they can only break free from one at a time. The rules say "A condition doesn’t stack with itself; a recipient either has a condition or doesn’t." But the rules don't say whether the creature can break free from all sources that cause the same condition at the same time or whether the creature has break free from all sources of the condition independently. If the latter is the case and they failed the initial save against both spells, then the only way they get out is by breaking free from Web on their turn with a Strength (Athletics) check while remaining restrained by Evard's and then, on their next turn avoid being restrained again by Web by succeeding on the Dex save and succeeding on a Strength (Athletics) check to break free from Evard's.

Another nice combo is any spell that creates Difficult Terrain, like Hunger of Hadar, and Plant Growth. Plant Growth says "A creature moving through that area must spend 4 feet of movement for every 1 foot it moves.", meaning that it does not create Difficult Terrain itself and therefore, it stacks with difficult terrain. If you now cast Hunger of Hadar on top of Plant Growth, each foot they move now costs them 5 feet of movement, meaning that with an average of 30 feet of movement, they can move only 6 feet on their turn while being blinded within Hunger of Hadar. And with the right invocations, a Warlock could ensure they never get out.

Lots of great control options. I'm leaning towards cleric×druid combo.
 

I agree you want a mix of damage and control.

However where I differ is that IMO, ideally you want strong AOE damage and strong single target control.

Thus, I’m focused more on druids/clerics for aoe damage and wizards/sorcerers/bards/half caster with magic initiate for single target control.

Aoe control is great as well, along with single target damage but those are more nice to have than essentials IMO.

Ideally your damage is all ranged but can be used in melee.

For me that makes Druid a mandatory class. Moonbeam, conjure animals, are amazing ranged aoes that recur and scale well. Also can handle single target control well with magic initiate.

While I personally love fighters/barbarians/rogues/monks, I’m probably not bringing one.

The rest probably would be some combination of wizard/sorcerers/cleric/maybe a 2nd Druid/maybe a paladin for aura of protection.

If the game was more skills focused I’d try to work a rogue in.

I've remembered this post snd yeah I think youre right.
Druids/clerics AoE, Sorcerers and Wizards for single/few targets.

Fighter, Monk Cleric, Druid Warlock or Paladin, Sorcerer, Druid, Barbarian, Cleric if more 5MW. Replace Warlock or whatever with wizard if its high level game.
 
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Lots of great control options. I'm leaning towards cleric×druid combo.
There are a lot of things you can do with synergy and teamwork. Also depends on what tier you're playing in. Bards, for example, are very different in tiers 1 and 2 than what they are after they get access to Magical Secrets in tiers 3 and 4.
 

1. Team Mom Multiattack
Combination of Coffeelock and Short Rest Superstar
Human Archfey Warlock 6/Clockwork Soul Sorcerer 3
Feats: Musician, Tireless Reveler, Lord's Alliance Agent, Inspiring Leader, Chef
Spell: Eldritch Blast
Invications: Repelling Blast, Agonizing Blast, Lessons of the Forst Ones, Pact of the Chain (Sphinx of Wonder)

2. Man Shoots, Gods Carry the Bullets
Fighter 1/Celestial Pact Warlock 6
Feats*: Alert, if using crossbow then Crossbow Expert
Weapon mastery: slow
Gear: Heaviest armor you can get and either hand crossbow with shield or musket
Cantrip: True Strike
Invocations: Repelling Blast (True Strike), Agonizing Blast (True Strike), Pact of the Chain

*- If Monsters of the Multiverse is allowed, then go Hobgoblin and grab for origin feat Harper Agent and then Harper Teamwork

3. Storm Knight
Khoravar Eldritch Knight Fighter 7+
Feats: Mark of the Storm, Potent Dragonmark, Warcaster
Weapon Mastery: Topple
Weapon: Quaterstaff
Cantrip: Sheilagh
Spells: Conjure Minor Elementals

4. I never miss
Hafling Battlemaster Fighter 5/War Cleric 3
Feats: Lucky
Spells: Bless
Weapon Mastery: Slow
Weapon: Longbow
Maneuvers: Ambush, Precision Strike, Knockdown


1 is a ranged dps that also constantly hands over inspiration and removes advantage from enemies/disadvantage from allies plus buffs everybody. 2 targets single target and keeps them away from fighting, deals +15 on a hit and may be handing help action like candy too. 3 goes into meele and deals horriffying amount of damage. 4 slows enemeis down with a bow and truly never misses between Bless and Tactical Mind, while also being excellent skillmonkey.

I think this group of 4 can easily shred through a lot of enemies.
 

There are a lot of things you can do with synergy and teamwork. Also depends on what tier you're playing in. Bards, for example, are very different in tiers 1 and 2 than what they are after they get access to Magical Secrets in tiers 3 and 4.

Bards on the short list of a long rest party.

Im thinking theres 2 parties based on how DMs run.

Basically long rest few encounter 5MWD and more longer marathon type meta.
 

Zardnaar:
Well looks like a few more people seem to be aware of how comparatively weak spellcasters are and how strong martials are in 5E.

Also Zardnaar:
1 Cleric
2 Fighter
1 Monk
1 Warlock
Barbarian
Paladin
Sorcerer
Bard
Cleric
Sixty percent of your second party ARE FULL-CASTERS. And of the other two, one is ALSO a partial spellcaster.

Of your first group, one is a full-caster, and one is nearly so, especially if you take certain things to make you more of a caster (like Pact of the Tome).

You keep pushing this "full casters SUCK SUCK SUCK SUCK SUCK" message, but your choices do not match your claims. I find that very telling.

Beyond that, if you actually want to be a nightmare for your GM, yes, something like the second party is a much, much better fit for that purpose. I would personally swap out the Sorcerer for a Wizard (especially as that party is otherwise very likely to be hurting for Int skills). Long as you choose the right subclasses of Barbarian and Paladin--my money's on World Tree and Redemption--you have an extremely solid group that can do some pretty tricksy things, and with even just a very small amount of advanced warning, can be almost completely prepared to deploy against many different threats. Divination is likely the best Wizard subclass for this context--after all, being able to force positive/negative results with Portent dice is by definition one of the game's greatest ways to screw with the GM, as it can only be countered by Legendary Resistance, though you can argue that a Bladesinger allows a Wizard to be enough of a gish that even you can't call it weak. For Bard, Lore allows for a max flex potential, and gives you great ways to juice skill checks, again allowing you to oppose the GM's preferences/choices. Cleric doesn't really matter; sure, some subclasses are worse than others, but none of them are truly awful; Light, War, or Knowledge would all be fine, and Life wouldn't be bad even if it would be a tad unnecessary with two other support-leaning characters in the party.

So...yeah. World Tree Barbarian (or something replacing it with more power/versatility), Redemption Paladin, Divination or Bladesinging Wizard, Lore Bard, and (say) Light Cleric? Yes, you are absolutely going to be screwing over your GM on the reg, because you actually have abilities that can tell the GM "nope, that didn't happen" and "well guess what, I can't roll less than 30 on this, so you're just hosed." (Redemption Paladin rolling Persuasion with Lore Bard support, Diviner Wizard in the back holding onto an awesome Portent die, and just innately having effectively Reliable Talent? Especially if she's picked up Expertise in Persuasion, not just Proficiency? Yeah. You might literally be able to push that roll up into the 40s, that's how juiced you are.)

At least partial spellcasters are, in nearly all cases, simply superior in their general capabilities than pure non-casters. Of the ten characters you listed above, half of them were full casters. Your arguments simply don't hold water by your own analysis!
 

Basically long rest few encounter 5MWD and more longer marathon type meta.
"Longer marathon type meta" functionally doesn't exist.

I'm 100% certain that there are real GMs out there who actually do run things that way. I'm also 100% certain that such GMs are a vanishingly tiny minority.

The vast, VAST majority of games simply do not run that long because it is not actually all that fun for most people to deal with a slog like that.
 

Zardnaar:


Also Zardnaar:


Sixty percent of your second party ARE FULL-CASTERS. And of the other two, one is ALSO a partial spellcaster.

Of your first group, one is a full-caster, and one is nearly so, especially if you take certain things to make you more of a caster (like Pact of the Tome).

You keep pushing this "full casters SUCK SUCK SUCK SUCK SUCK" message, but your choices do not match your claims. I find that very telling.

Beyond that, if you actually want to be a nightmare for your GM, yes, something like the second party is a much, much better fit for that purpose. I would personally swap out the Sorcerer for a Wizard (especially as that party is otherwise very likely to be hurting for Int skills). Long as you choose the right subclasses of Barbarian and Paladin--my money's on World Tree and Redemption--you have an extremely solid group that can do some pretty tricksy things, and with even just a very small amount of advanced warning, can be almost completely prepared to deploy against many different threats. Divination is likely the best Wizard subclass for this context--after all, being able to force positive/negative results with Portent dice is by definition one of the game's greatest ways to screw with the GM, as it can only be countered by Legendary Resistance, though you can argue that a Bladesinger allows a Wizard to be enough of a gish that even you can't call it weak. For Bard, Lore allows for a max flex potential, and gives you great ways to juice skill checks, again allowing you to oppose the GM's preferences/choices. Cleric doesn't really matter; sure, some subclasses are worse than others, but none of them are truly awful; Light, War, or Knowledge would all be fine, and Life wouldn't be bad even if it would be a tad unnecessary with two other support-leaning characters in the party.

So...yeah. World Tree Barbarian (or something replacing it with more power/versatility), Redemption Paladin, Divination or Bladesinging Wizard, Lore Bard, and (say) Light Cleric? Yes, you are absolutely going to be screwing over your GM on the reg, because you actually have abilities that can tell the GM "nope, that didn't happen" and "well guess what, I can't roll less than 30 on this, so you're just hosed." (Redemption Paladin rolling Persuasion with Lore Bard support, Diviner Wizard in the back holding onto an awesome Portent die, and just innately having effectively Reliable Talent? Especially if she's picked up Expertise in Persuasion, not just Proficiency? Yeah. You might literally be able to push that roll up into the 40s, that's how juiced you are.)

At least partial spellcasters are, in nearly all cases, simply superior in their general capabilities than pure non-casters. Of the ten characters you listed above, half of them were full casters. Your arguments simply don't hold water by your own analysis!
I'd go with Watcher over Redemption and Peace or Twilight for the Cleric. I would also let the Bard roll for Persuasion with Expertise rather than the Paladin and if that's the main role, go with Eloquence over Lore. If messing with the DM is the goal, then the ability to not roll Persuasion or Deception under a 17 at level 3 definitely belongs in here. Watcher gives the party a nice Initiative boost, Twilight Cleric makes the party unkillable at low levels and Peace Clerics provide a free stackable Bless effect. And World Tree is perfect for positioning. If you want to be mean about it, make him Dragonborn or Aasimar for Flying at level 5 and drop enemies from the sky and knock them prone.
 

I'd go with Watcher over Redemption and Peace or Twilight for the Cleric. I would also let the Bard roll for Persuasion with Expertise rather than the Paladin and if that's the main role, go with Eloquence over Lore. If messing with the DM is the goal, then the ability to not roll Persuasion or Deception under a 17 at level 3 definitely belongs in here. Watcher gives the party a nice Initiative boost, Twilight Cleric makes the party unkillable at low levels and Peace Clerics provide a free stackable Bless effect. And World Tree is perfect for positioning. If you want to be mean about it, make him Dragonborn or Aasimar for Flying at level 5 and drop enemies from the sky and knock them prone.
Ah damn. Somehow I thought there was already a 5.5e version of Redemption, so I thought I was sticking only to 5.5e options. Guess not. So, I guess replace Redemption with Ancients, given it has magic resist aura.

Twilight, Eloquence, Watchers, and Peace do not exist yet for 5.5e, so I wasn't considering them.
 

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