The Most Underpowered Class?

[Destil]

I think it's safe to say that the whole "this isn't WoW" line is utterly and shamelessly devoid of novelty. It's officially cemented in the realm of tired cliche. D&D may not be WoW, but like WoW it is a game where you kill monsters by divesting them of hit points, so damage output is rightly considered enormously important to a class whose role is dedicated to delivering the party's payload.

Actually, it's 'not like WoW' for a number of fairly technical reasons, and I mean that as an assessment of the combat mechanics on a whole of both games, rather than a snide side-jab. WoW's combat is quite different than 4E and at the end of the day in large raid situations at max level (which is the only thing the game is balanced for, aside from a nod towards arena PvP) almost every DPS member of your raid is pretty easy to qualify by the little bar that shows you how much damage they do.

There are fights that require more from your damage guys than being awake at the wheel and reacting to gimmicks, but with groups as huge as a WoW raid (10 or 25 people currently) it's not really an issue, someone in the raid will generally have the ability to deal with things like dispels. The limited stacking mechanics mean that most buff/debuff 'slots' can be filled by any of 2-3 classes.

With a few hours of parsed log data I can pretty easily tell a breakdown of a raid's DPS members and with real world data it's not generally much more than 'bigger number is better.' Especially as coming in at high DPS generally means that a raid member understands the mechanics of a fights and basics like maneuvering and positioning well, since doing poorly with gimmicks will generally result in lower DPS (more time spent moving into/out of safe areas, more time spent with a fight-changing damage buff, poor aggro management requiring you to burn cooldowns on defensive abilities or just spending time dead et cetera). Tanks need a lot of skill and ability to control a fight, healers need good instincts and reflexes to balance mana vs cooldowns vs throughput vs risk (though like DPS raid/area healers are pretty easy to judge with total healing numbers, especially effective heal, though there are cross healing concerns that DPS ratings don't share), but DPS you can almost always rate by number with good accuracy.



Now, D&D, on the other hand, offers players a much smaller group. There's still some load balancing, but it's not on the same level when you need to fill 11 buff slots with 25 people from 9 classes. Parties will have strengths and weakness, and they will be far more pronounced than looking at two raid groups. Things like target selection, slipperiness, resilience and whatnot are much more common.

In WoW if your non-tanks take two hits they die; maybe one on a crit, which is around a 25% chance. Non-tank damage is usually a sign of something very wrong, or intended to be hitting non-tanks (and thus designed to be survived by them). In D&D it's a lot more common. You tend to deal with more opponents at once, and your tanks don't get a free ride just because they can pump out threat numbers. Positioning and similar things matter a lot.



So what's the warlock got going for him?

Pact Boons, which can be pretty sweet. Feypact warlocks are terribly hard to ever pin down in a real combat; infernal warlocks are actually pretty resistant to damage between high con and the free temp HP; starlocks get a nice boost to whatever they want next turn. (I haven't had any experience with Vestiage or Dark warlocks, myself). They're also right there next to the sorcerer as one of the strikers most happy to see minions in a fight.

Decent options for Fort/Reflex/Will selection. Not as versatile as as a wizard, but better than most other strikers and some controllers. Using these well can have a strong effect on accuracy, in a way idealized DPR vs. 15+level defense spreadsheets don't show. Infernal warlocks miss out a bit here (both their at-wills hit ref).

Shadow Walk. This is a fantastic power, it's pretty much an always-on +2 to defenses for non-area attacks. Granted starlocks who do an even split are screwed on AC; but it's more of a flawed build option rather than an underpowered class.

Respectable single target damage. Some builds (those that fall closer to controllers) may get out damaged by a damage inclined member of another class (fighters, I'm looking at you). They also tend to have better area damage or screw the enemy over options, however.

Interesting options. There's a lot of appealing curse-related feats and items.

In actual play I've seen some very successful warlocks who contribute to combat in useful ways. The class isn't in the upper half of the power curve, but they're not so far below that I'd call them underpowered. If anything the starlock is an underpowered build, since they have some flaws in defenses and their pact boon isn't that great, their feat and paragon path support are both rather strong but primarily from Dragon. But that's the build, not the class.

 

[Ryujin]

A pretty good analysis.

As to the Darklock they are as damage oriented a build as the Infernalock, but CHA based. Perhaps moreso. Also Darkspiral Aura, as a pact boon, both debuffs incoming damage and damages the attacker. They also have two huge, close blast 20 potential minion clearing encounter powers, one of which comes in at Level 1. They, of all the Warlock builds, make excellent use of the Rod of Corruption.

 

[Felon]

So to extend the analogy, Damage output, the guy who only knows one programming language ,when everyone else knows 3-5, does not get the corner office.

Damage output, the guy who doesn't have a passport, does not get to be the top seller inteh office when everyone else has international customers.

DPR is important, but if it is all that you feel is important in a character, then role-playing must be off the stove entirely in your games.

You are still thinking in terms of competing with damage, which makes for a an inaccurate extension of the analogy. Without Damage Output, the programmers don't have a product to program and the sellers don't have anything to sell.

As to role-playing....How does that come into play in a discussion of underpowered classes? The reason I stuck with my warlock for all of that time is that I enjoyed role-playing the character. But eventually, the limitations of the class design, including damage output, grew too unsatisfying.

 

[Felon]

Actually, it's 'not like WoW' for a number of fairly technical reasons, and I mean that as an assessment of the combat mechanics on a whole of both games, rather than a snide side-jab.

OK, fair enough. Moving along....

So what's the warlock got going for him?

Pact Boons, which can be pretty sweet. Feypact warlocks are terribly hard to ever pin down in a real combat; infernal warlocks are actually pretty resistant to damage between high con and the free temp HP; starlocks get a nice boost to whatever they want next turn. (I haven't had any experience with Vestiage or Dark warlocks, myself). They're also right there next to the sorcerer as one of the strikers most happy to see minions in a fight.

Decent options for Fort/Reflex/Will selection. Not as versatile as as a wizard, but better than most other strikers and some controllers. Using these well can have a strong effect on accuracy, in a way idealized DPR vs. 15+level defense spreadsheets don't show. Infernal warlocks miss out a bit here (both their at-wills hit ref).

Shadow Walk. This is a fantastic power, it's pretty much an always-on +2 to defenses for non-area attacks. Granted starlocks who do an even split are screwed on AC; but it's more of a flawed build option rather than an underpowered class.

Respectable single target damage. Some builds (those that fall closer to controllers) may get out damaged by a damage inclined member of another class (fighters, I'm looking at you). They also tend to have better area damage or screw the enemy over options, however.

Interesting options. There's a lot of appealing curse-related feats and items.

In actual play I've seen some very successful warlocks who contribute to combat in useful ways. The class isn't in the upper half of the power curve, but they're not so far below that I'd call them underpowered. If anything the starlock is an underpowered build, since they have some flaws in defenses and their pact boon isn't that great, their feat and paragon path support are both rather strong but primarily from Dragon. But that's the build, not the class.

I've played the class, having a generous (or perhaps merely indifferent) DM who let me respec between sessions. I tried starlocks and hellocks. I alternated between the highest-damage powers and the highest-control powers. They weren't unplayable. Like that line in The 300..."They did their part". But they weren't Spartans, that was clear. They didn't excel at anything with any consistency, and they rarely seemed to be doing the job of striking.

The pact boons are a big plate of YMMV. The requirement that something has to die makes them rather inconsistent from encounter to encounter, or even campaign to campaign. The darkspiral pact provides a set of mechanics that can actually aid a striker, but the others not so much.

Extolling shadow walk as fantastic is something of a gaffe. This is just a patch for an otherwise low defense set, like Barbarian Agility. Add it in, and a warlock's defenses come out fair compared to other classes. It helps all four defenses, which is nice, but considering that area and close attacks ignore its benefits altogether, I'd call that something of a push.

The single-target damage is patently unimpressive if there's someone around with a mordenkrad, fullblade, greatbow, and son. And that someone doesn't even have to be a striker to outpace the warlock. Regarding area options, warlocks are pretty low on these until dailies start getting burned.

Regarding "a lot of appealing curse-related feats and items".....well, you could say this for just about any class. Other classes have feats and magic items, so warlocks don't catch up to other classes simply because they have them to.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Want to ruin a Feytouched's day? Blind him or stick him in magical darkness. Too much of a one trick pony.

Which class performs well in this scenario?

 

[FireLance]

Which class performs well in this scenario?

Characters with plenty of Close and Area attacks. This tends to mean controllers.

 

[amusingsn]

Interesting.

Does your DM allow the use of other official supplements (like Arcane Power)? I also don't normally allow magazine entries into my games but I am willing to consider Dragon Magazine Annual an official supplement simply based on it's official look and feel, hardcopy distribution and WotC backing.

I really like the look and feel of the Starlock's baground and the ideas in the DMA. It'd be a shame if that doesn't provide some kind of working and (pseudo-)official fix to the classe's problems.

Mind you player's haven't shown any interest in it yet but you never know...

-doug

I think the problem with the DM is that he's an old man who can barely keep track of what day it is, never mind keeping up with a dozen or more dragon magazines in addition to the "official" core rules books. I know for a fact that since he really likes Saagael's player, he should probably make an exception for the Star Pact stuff from the dragon magazine.

But truth be told, the player in question is heads and shoulders above the rest of the group, mechanics-wise, so the character in question performs above average for the party. That makes it easy for the DM in question.

On topic with the main issue of the thread --

It's been suggested the rogues are the weakest class. I've seen rogues played in all three tiers and I have to say they are pretty consistently balanced. They have good damage output -- a combination of a high hit bonus (and many weapon attacks that target NADs) and a large strike-class-damage-bonus-dice pool. The downside, as has been suggested, is their squishiness. They don't have particularly good defenses, and as a melee striker class, they tend to be tempting targets when the opportunity arises. It's a give and take.

It's been suggested that warlocks are the weakest class. As strikers go, I have to agree that their damage potential leaves a lot to be desired. And of course the whole "two-primary-stat" deal with the Star Pact warlocks is a bum deal, to be sure. I have played an Infernal Pact warlock from level 1 to 28 thus far, so I feel like I can speak with authority when I say that any downside to my damage potential (my at-wills do less damage than the fighter's) is more than made up for my survivability and versatility (we joke at the table that we'll never have a TPK because my character can beat most of the encounters we engage in single-handedly, given enough time).

It's been suggested that warlords are the weakest class. My warlock's party has a level 28 tactical warlord, and I have to say, the amount of bonuses he grants the party is absurd. A ludicrous +7 bonus to hit whenever we spend an action point for an extra attack, a bonus to hit when *he* spends an action point, for everyone. I would have to say that, tactical warlords, at least, are not underpowered at any tier of play, and especially not in the epic tier when their bonuses scale off the charts.

As for classes that might stand *above* the rest, I'd have to say that Fighters seem to be easy to do very well. They can dish out good damage, are very survivable, have several abilities to control multiple targets (come and get it, level 7 encounter, omg -- don't train out of this one, folks), and their mark is ludicrously sticky.

 

[Ryujin]

Characters with plenty of Close and Area attacks. This tends to mean controllers.

Or characters who have a lot of shifting abilities.

 

[surfarcher]

I think the problem with the DM is that he's an old man who can barely keep track of what day it is, never mind keeping up with a dozen or more dragon magazines in addition to the "official" core rules books. I know for a fact that since he really likes Saagael's player, he should probably make an exception for the Star Pact stuff from the dragon magazine.

But truth be told, the player in question is heads and shoulders above the rest of the group, mechanics-wise, so the character in question performs above average for the party. That makes it easy for the DM in question.

Well this old man has the same problem. I can keep track of all those damned hardback supplements if I stretch myself. But I draw the line at adding a stack of magazines to the equation. OK, OK. My old worn out brain draws the line. Naturally I reserve the right to cherry pick anything from them that I can use as a DM And perhaps if a player made a really good case for something in a mag I might make an exception. But as a rule...

Consider the DMA me trying meet players in the middle for the sake of a broken build that badly needs fixing. Not that any of mine have ever used it... Yet.

-doug
(PS. Nice to meet Saagael's DM )

 

[Saagael]

(PS. Nice to meet Saagael's DM )

Well don't I feel silly now. >.>