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5E The Multiverse

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I'd agree with this. I'm sure that the D&D and Magic teams have worked out a model internally, that underlies what's in the Ravnica and Theros books and I forms Crawford's Shenanigans with Vi. I don't think we'll get the full, official explanation until we get the reverse stream crossing a D&D card set for Magic).
Yeah Vi definitely makes sense in some model they’ve worked out. Anyone who cares about the canon has to figure out how to make sense of a Gnomish Planeswalker from Eberron who easily boops from Sigil to Waterdeep to Ravnica to Sharn.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
My take is that the DnD "multiverse" is one part of the entire multiverse. Outside of the Great Wheel are infinite planes and worlds, many of which are MtG settings. Travel between them, and between those planes and the Great Wheel, requires Planeswalking or a magical technology similar to that.

Avernus doesn't directly connect to Ravnica, but one can be reached from the other with the Spark. That presents no contradiction or change to the lore of either setting.
I think all Cosmologies can be true at the same time. You can have a bunch of worlds that connect to the planes via the great wheel. That's how they get around. You can have one or more settings that get to the various planes via the Tree as Toril does. You can have hundreds of other ways for hundreds or thousands of other settings.

You can also cross over from one cosmology to the next. The planes are infinite, so you could reach Olympus/Arborea by the Tree of Toril, then travel across that plane to the portal town that gets you to the Great Wheel and visit Greyhawk. Then take the Great Wheel back to Olympus/Arborea and travel to wherever access to Ravnica happens and become subject to whatever cosmology Ravnica uses until such time as you move on to another one.

The cosmologies aren't mutually exclusive due to the infinite nature of the planes.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Forgotten Realms and it's Inner and Outer and Transitive Planes are entirely within a Crystal Sphere. If you've got a Spelljammer, you can sail from that Crystal Sphere to the ones around Theros, or Ravnica, or Eberron, or Athas, or Greyhawk, or Krynn, or Mystara, or Blackmoor, etc etc etc.

In that case, you'd be a Planeswalker in MtG terms or a the helm of a Spelljammer, in D&D terms.
Where do you get that from? In Spelljammer only the prime setting and associated prime plane were contained by the Crystal Spheres.
 

MechaTarrasque

Adventurer
I will stick with my idea from a previous thread. At some point, the MtG multiverse was part of the D&D multiverse and broke off. There were some demons (including at least one demon lord), angels, fey, and elementals in the part of the multiverse that broke off. Since archons are big part of MtG, and they haven't shown up in GW 5e and weren't celestials in 4e, I think we can conclude the split happened around the end of 3.5. I could see a mass exodus of archons trying to avoid being changed into elementals or angels. Since outer planes are different (if they exist at all) in the MtG multiverse, that might explain some of the changes in the outsiders.

Rilmani, guardianals, and those winged guys from Careni whose names I can't spell also disappeared around the same time. I don't think any of them are in MtG, so maybe there is another multiverse out there....
 

dave2008

Legend
Forgotten Realms and it's Inner and Outer and Transitive Planes are entirely within a Crystal Sphere. If you've got a Spelljammer, you can sail from that Crystal Sphere to the ones around Theros, or Ravnica, or Eberron, or Athas, or Greyhawk, or Krynn, or Mystara, or Blackmoor, etc etc etc.

In that case, you'd be a Planeswalker in MtG terms or a the helm of a Spelljammer, in D&D terms.
However, from my understanding of MtG lore is almost impossible to cross over to other planes. Only those with the planeswalker spark and Eldrazi can do it. Not even the gods of MtG can do it. For example the gods cannot cross the Blind Eternities to get to Ravnica or another MtG plane.

So you could say a spelljamer can do it, but that doesn't really fit the lore of MtG. Ideally i like a solution that combines the lore for the two conceptual realities with as little modifications as needed to make it possible.
 

This is one of those unusual arguments that really don't matter 99.99999% of the time. It's like when they officially put Eberron in the standard Cosmic Wheel and the fans went nuts; if you don't like it, ignore it! Each DM can decide what/how to use any official canon, and it only ever matters if the DM wants to incorporate it. It's nothing more than a mental exercise for DMs.

For example, in my Greyhawk campaign there is no Spelljammer. There are 4 close alternate material planes (Aerth, Earth, Urth, and Yarth), 3 medium distance alternate material planes (Realms, Dragonlance, Mystara), and an infinite number of far alternate material planes. Travel between them is planar, involving moving through the Ethereal plane, as noted in the 1E Manual of the Planes.

One of my players is a DM who really likes Spelljammer, and he uses it officially in his Realms campaign. In the nearly 20 years of gaming together it has come up exactly 0 times during a game.
 

Marandahir

Crown-Forester
However, from my understanding of MtG lore is almost impossible to cross over to other planes. Only those with the planeswalker spark and Eldrazi can do it. Not even the gods of MtG can do it. For example the gods cannot cross the Blind Eternities to get to Ravnica or another MtG plane.

So you could say a spelljamer can do it, but that doesn't really fit the lore of MtG. Ideally i like a solution that combines the lore for the two conceptual realities with as little modifications as needed to make it possible.
The thing is… #InKeithsEberron folks from Eberron can't access the other planes either. People from Athas can't leave either. And folks that end up in the Demiplane of Dread rarely are able to escape the mists of Ravenloft…

Even the planes with Gods don't have those deities trying to take over other realities in the Multiverse. They are focused on their Crystal Sphere. It's unclear if they can't pass over (their power locked to the planes of that universe's reality) or if they simple lack the knowledge of/how to do so.

But then there are the rare few who can move between planes. There's someone in Faerûn who works in Ravnica every so often. They're not necessarily all-powerful cosmic beings, but they have the means and ways to do it and they're getting by. The point is that if you have the need or want to end up thrust from one universe to another, you can. And that's an interesting story worth allowing at some tables.
 
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dave2008

Legend
The thing is… #InKeithsEberron folks from Eberron can't access the other planes either. People from Athas can't leave either. And folks go end up in the Demiplane of Dread rarely are able to escape the mists of Ravenloft…

Even the planes with Gods don't have those deities trying to take over other realities in the Multiverse. They are focused on their Crystal Sphere. It's unclear if they can't pass over (their power locked to the planes of that universe's reality) or if they simple lack the knowledge of/how to do so.

But then there are the rare few who can move between planes. There's someone in Faerûn who works in Ravnica every so often. They're not necessarily all-powerful cosmic beings, but they have the means and ways to do it and they're getting by. The point is that if you have the need or want to end up thrust from one universe to another, you can. And that's an interesting story worth allowing at some tables.
Sure, I've applied the same concept, but without the crystal spheres (using the BE from MtG and Far Realm from D&D). However, that is mostly because I don't like the idea of the Crystal Spheres and the phlogiston.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
So you could say a spelljamer can do it, but that doesn't really fit the lore of MtG. Ideally i like a solution that combines the lore for the two conceptual realities with as little modifications as needed to make it possible.
Actually, from relatively early in Magic's history, the great flying sky ship Weatherlight was capable of crossing to other planes.
 

Parmandur

Legend
Actually, from relatively early in Magic's history, the great flying sky ship Weatherlight was capable of crossing to other planes.
I think there was a cosmological shift in the Aughts due to metaplot Shenanigans, and that's not possible anymore...that the Magic plot characters know about, at any rate.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Even the planes with Gods don't have those deities trying to take over other realities in the Multiverse. They are focused on their Crystal Sphere. It's unclear if they can't pass over (their power locked to the planes of that universe's reality) or if they simple lack the knowledge of/how to do so.
It's not unclear at all. We know from D&D lore that the gods can go wherever they have followers, but their power is relative to the number of followers on a given plane. So Thor might be a lesser god on one plane, a greater god on a second, and barely a demigod on a third. With just one follower, I remember the spell level being granted being something like 2nd or so max.

Look at the Forgotten Realms pantheon. It has gods from Egypt(Ra, Osiris, etc), Norse(Tyr), Finnish(Mielikki), Celtic(Oghma) and more.

I've had players of clerics who plane traveled to another setting and starting trying to gather worshipers for their god in order to firmly establish their god in the new setting.
 
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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I think there was a cosmological shift in the Aughts due to metaplot Shenanigans, and that's not possible anymore...that the Magic plot characters know about, at any rate.
I don't know. I haven't played Magic much in the last 10 or so years. But if it can shift once, it can shift again to allow these settings to connect to others. :)
 

Mercurius

Legend
I don't know the Magic cosmology well enough to comment, but I think we can also account for the Great Wheel and the World Tree, as well as variant cosmologies. In my mind they are all compatible--but we have to get out of the "Myth of the Given" and Newtonian physics, and dip more into the quantum paradigm.

So here's my take: The actual ontological nature of the multiverse is unknown. Maybe there is an order of cosmic beings that oversees it and know the true structure of it all, but for the inhabitants of the planes--even the gods--it is, well, a matter of how you look at it.

The different cosmologies are paradigms that have both a conceptual structure to them, but also a praxis. The conceptual and perceptual structure actually form an experiential reality. In other words, the multiverse works closer to the laws of quantum mechanics than Newtonian physics.

It is kind of like Earthly ideologies: none are absolute truth (unless you're a fundamentalist of a specific ideology), but all have relative truth. They are perspectives that lead to an injunction, which in turn creates an experiential reality.
 




ccs

40th lv DM
So, the topic of how the MtG multiverse and the DnD multiverse interact keeps coming up in threads, and I just wanted to have a discussion on the topic without derailing other threads.

Some have said that the two aren't compatible. I personally feel they are completely compatible.

What do y'all think?
I don't see any difference in having D&D settings based on MTG sets as I do any of the settings TSR gave us, any that WoTC gave us, any that 3rd parties have produced, or the countless personal settings used by individual groups past/present/future.
 

If you allow me to say it, sometimes I worry WotC could change the metaplot about the metaverse because if Hasbro knows they can make money with "intercompany crossovers" as a Hyrule-D&D or a Final Fantasy-D&D they its going to ask a good explanation. Or Hasbro talks with scripters by EnternaimentOne about an adaptation of Dragonlance and the possible retcons. These have got some ideas, but someones are too risky, and then WotC has to think seriously about the option of uchronies or parallel worlds with a different timeline.
 

Tonguez

Hero
Dominaria provides you with a ready made mechanic via the Shard of the Twelve Worlds.

Obviously the Planes of DnD are all within their own shard which is locked off from the rest of the Multiverse out somewhere beyond the Blind Eternities
 

AliasBot

Villager
I'll admit, I'm far less well-versed in the finer details of D&D's cosmology than I am in those of MtG's, but from what I do know, there seem to be plenty of ways to make the two fit together. The question is more how much to integrate them, and, to some extent, how to avoid subsuming one into the other. ("This thing you like is actually a smaller, self-contained part of this other thing you don't necessarily care about/for" seems like it has the potential to ruffle feathers.)

I think there was a cosmological shift in the Aughts due to metaplot Shenanigans, and that's not possible anymore...that the Magic plot characters know about, at any rate.
Yeah, the Time Spiral block ('06-'07 irl, ~60 years ago in-universe) ended with the Mending, which, on top of resolving the crisis introduced in the block's plot (tl;dr, Dominaria was being devastated by a bunch of tears in reality), had two major, multiverse-wide effects:

1) Non-planeswalker means of traveling between worlds (planar portals/passages, other interplanar tech/magic) ceased to function.
2) Planeswalkers were massively depowered (went from nigh-immortal thoughtforms to flesh-and-blood mortals, could no longer transport non-'walkers between planes, in D&D terms their general spellcasting abilities went from having no level cap to capping out at ~level 15).

(Out-of-universe, the point of the Mending was to position planeswalkers as the main characters/faces of the game, as they're the most prominent element of Magic's lore that's relatively unique to the franchise, rather than just being standard fantasy fare. It established what they could do as something that only they could do, and brought them down to a power level where they could A, be believably challenged in-story without always needing a world-shaking threat, and B, be accurately portrayed on cards. While it's not impossible that they could change things again if needed, the importance of planeswalkers to MtG's brand would make diluting their uniqueness again a tough sell.)
 

Mythological Figures & Maleficent Monsters

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