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5E The Multiverse

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
So, the topic of how the MtG multiverse and the DnD multiverse interact keeps coming up in threads, and I just wanted to have a discussion on the topic without derailing other threads.

Some have said that the two aren't compatible. I personally feel they are completely compatible.

What do y'all think?

(my preferred take will be in a reply)
 

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doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
My take is that the DnD "multiverse" is one part of the entire multiverse. Outside of the Great Wheel are infinite planes and worlds, many of which are MtG settings. Travel between them, and between those planes and the Great Wheel, requires Planeswalking or a magical technology similar to that.

Avernus doesn't directly connect to Ravnica, but one can be reached from the other with the Spark. That presents no contradiction or change to the lore of either setting.
 

Kurotowa

Adventurer
They're as comparable as the DM wants to make them. I mean, no setting goes without getting a unique spin from the DM running the campaign. Maybe it's something like the Eberron game I'm in, where the DM is leaning into a more magitech feel and throws in stuff like chain link fences and outside fire escapes. Maybe it's how every DM has their own take on how gods work and what their relationship with a Cleric PC is. But it happens in every campaign.

So maybe D&D Ravnica and Theros are entirely D&D worlds that just so happen to be very similar to MtG worlds, but that's player meta-knowledge and has no bearing on the characters. Maybe the two continuums are conjoined and one of them (take your pick) exists in a small corner of the other where the rules are different. Or maybe the DM wants to embark on some grand project of explaining how everything links up and this is how MtG planeswalkers work under a D&D rule set and it's all a grand revelation to the players even if it goes over the PC's heads.

I suspect the choice will depend heavily on how invested the group in general and the DM in particular are invested in both games.
 




Parmandur

Legend
My take is that the DnD "multiverse" is one part of the entire multiverse. Outside of the Great Wheel are infinite planes and worlds, many of which are MtG settings. Travel between them, and between those planes and the Great Wheel, requires Planeswalking or a magical technology similar to that.

Avernus doesn't directly connect to Ravnica, but one can be reached from the other with the Spark. That presents no contradiction or change to the lore of either setting.
I'd agree with this. I'm sure that the D&D and Magic teams have worked out a model internally, that underlies what's in the Ravnica and Theros books and I forms Crawford's Shenanigans with Vi. I don't think we'll get the full, official explanation until we get the reverse stream crossing a D&D card set for Magic).
 


Hatmatter

Explorer
So, the topic of how the MtG multiverse and the DnD multiverse interact keeps coming up in threads, and I just wanted to have a discussion on the topic without derailing other threads.

Some have said that the two aren't compatible. I personally feel they are completely compatible.

What do y'all think?

(my preferred take will be in a reply)
I am not familiar with the multiverse of Magic the Gathering, so I don't want to misrepresent myself. I only played it for the first time last year after visiting Wizards of the Coast in Renton with my ten-year old daughter and being gifted with a starter set. In fact, I was at the GenCon where it debuted in 1992 or 1993 and remember everyone playing it in the hallways and I was simply not interested, I was too busy geeking out on meeting Gary Gygax, Ed Greenwood, Dave Cook, and seeing all the new TSR stuff, etc.

So, I am probably not that useful. But, I like your posting so I will offer my thoughts.

Part of the appeal of D&D to me, ever since I was a kid, was the generic component of its fantasy where it seemed to embrace all fantasy. I would stare at the diagram of the planes in the back of the PHB and Deities & Demigods and relish the idea of a world of worlds where Tolkien's Middle Earth, the gods & heroes of ancient mythic Greece, Fafhrd & the Grey Mouser, and Conan (does anyone remember the one or two Advanced D&D modules that TSR put out set in the Hyborian Age with Arnold Schwarzenegger on the cover as Conan?) could all exist side-by-side. As an adult, I realize that the distinctive character and mood of a specific fantasy world can be better captured by specific games and game mechanics (here's looking at you Call of Cthulhu!), but the appeal of Cthulhu in the same multiverse as Terry Brooks's Shannara series or whatever is wonderful. And, to be honest, I still love the all-inclusive quality of D&D. A talented and creative D&D can use D&D to capture the spirit of HP Lovecraft or Michael Moorcock or Jack Vance or Tolkien. It is all possible.

I love that. Anything that would make my fantasy environment something where it is "all possible" is fun for me. For that reason, I thought the introduction of the Feywild and the Shadowfell were brilliant because they made existing fantasy literature tropes, ideas, and elements even more possible within the multiverse. Also, back in the 1990s, I purchased most of the Historical Reference series books because I loved a multiverse that incorporated the historical world of Charlemagne, the Vikings, the Celts, or the early Renaissance (I loved my campaign I created using A Mighty Fortress) with Oerth, Krynn, Toril, Athas, etc.

So, even though I don't really play MtG, I will definitely be purchasing Mythic Odysseys of Theros.
 

I don't mind the canon too much if I can change in the way I want, but I worry about WotC making an mistake and we have got a "jummping the shark". We don't know the future plans by Hasbro about the franchise, and this is very important, because if they want official crossover between D&D and other franchises, we are going to need a really good explanation.

Some times in the past I was kidding about a future event, the multiverse secret crisis wars, causing a reset and reboot of all the D&D franchises. You can bet Hasbro would dare to do it if they think it's necesary. Don't say "That is not possible, that would be like if Marvel Comics kills Captain America, Spiderman, Iron Man, or Thor becomes fatter and... oh wait!

* The crossover is possible, but the lore by both lines aren't linked yet.

* There is an option: old D&D lines could be recycled to be possible future planes as places of adventures by the planewalkers. A planewalker from Hollow World(Mystara), Jakandor or Cerilia(Birthright)? Never say never.

* The time travel and creation of a new timeline is official in a Magic: the Gathering plane, and also possible in D&D, but very, very rare. I guess this a joker card they are keeping until the right time if later they need a too radical reboot.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
The D&D Multiverse is entirely a meta construct. Every D&D game ever played is a part of the Multiverse, and is connected to every other. Because they all use the same rules, the same game physics, the same game references, the same identities showing up again and again and again across millions of D&D games since Dungeons & Dragons was first invented. And no "character" within any game world knows "the truth"... the same way none of us in the real world know the truth about our own potential Multiverse. It's all just theory, it's all just philosophy, it's all just stories with no method of proving it real or not.

Even if "characters" within a world think they know the truth about the Multiverse because they can travel to other planes of existence... like a Faerunian character from a person's FR game travels to Eberron or Theros, or whatever... they don't know the whole truth of the D&D Multiverse because they ain't travelling to MY Forgotten Realms game worlds. And mine are just a handful of the other millions those characters will never know about or experience.
 

Marandahir

Crown-Forester
Forgotten Realms and it's Inner and Outer and Transitive Planes are entirely within a Crystal Sphere. If you've got a Spelljammer, you can sail from that Crystal Sphere to the ones around Theros, or Ravnica, or Eberron, or Athas, or Greyhawk, or Krynn, or Mystara, or Blackmoor, etc etc etc.

In that case, you'd be a Planeswalker in MtG terms or a the helm of a Spelljammer, in D&D terms.
 


Hatmatter

Explorer
Forgotten Realms and it's Inner and Outer and Transitive Planes are entirely within a Crystal Sphere. If you've got a Spelljammer, you can sail from that Crystal Sphere to the ones around Theros, or Ravnica, or Eberron, or Athas, or Greyhawk, or Krynn, or Mystara, or Blackmoor, etc etc etc.

In that case, you'd be a Planeswalker in MtG terms or a the helm of a Spelljammer, in D&D terms.
I don't want to be a "fantasy cop" because anyone can run their games or envision their fantasy environments however they would like. But, as someone who ran Spelljammer at my table when it first came out and who has listened to all of the Dragon Talk interviews over the years wherein Jeremy Crawford, Chris Perkins, Matt Cernak, and others communicate how they think about these things, I would merely offer that I am reasonably sure (I could always be wrong) that this is not the way the multiverse was conceived in either 2nd edition or in 5th edition. In those editions, I am reasonably certain that the position expressed in either the products (Spelljammer) or the Wizards of the Coast-sanctioned interviews with the current creative team, is that the worlds of Athas, Krynn, Mystara, etc. are all part of the same Material Plane and are separated in distinct crystal spheres. The Inner Planes are not unique to each crystal sphere. So, at least from these official sources that I mention, the Elemental Plane of Fire that might be accessed from Krynn is the same one that might be accessed from Oerth or Abeir-Toril. The same would be said of any of the Inner Planes or Transitive Planes.

Again, I am not meaning to step on how you run things. It's a fantasy game and everyone is free to imagine it how they might, but this is my understanding about how the crystal spheres were conceived in the 1990s and by the current creative team at Wizards of the Coast.
 

Coroc

Hero
everything is possible with d&d. The only headache i get is, if people try to make fluff of one setting compatible with fluff from the other , by using the crowbar method, while claiming said fluff is mechanical rules and the game be broken if it does not work their way.
other than that, specifically considering mtg and d&d, it seems to be quite easy in that case, unless you plan crossovers to some of the other official settings.
the latter requires some more thought and work to make it run smoothly.
 

Coroc

Hero
I don't want to be a "fantasy cop" because anyone can run their games or envision their fantasy environments however they would like. But, as someone who ran Spelljammer at my table when it first came out and who has listened to all of the Dragon Talk interviews over the years wherein Jeremy Crawford, Chris Perkins, Matt Cernak, and others communicate how they think about these things, I would merely offer that I am reasonably sure (I could always be wrong) that this is not the way the multiverse was conceived in either 2nd edition or in 5th edition. In those editions, I am reasonably certain that the position expressed in either the products (Spelljammer) or the Wizards of the Coast-sanctioned interviews with the current creative team, is that the worlds of Athas, Krynn, Mystara, etc. are all part of the same Material Plane and are separated in distinct crystal spheres. The Inner Planes are not unique to each crystal sphere. So, at least from these official sources that I mention, the Elemental Plane of Fire that might be accessed from Krynn is the same one that might be accessed from Oerth or Abeir-Toril. The same would be said of any of the Inner Planes or Transitive Planes.

Again, I am not meaning to step on how you run things. It's a fantasy game and everyone is free to imagine it how they might, but this is my understanding about how the crystal spheres were conceived in the 1990s and by the current creative team at Wizards of the Coast.
it is not the fact in your example that the plane of fire would be a possible transitional plane between otherwise incompatible worlds, it is the primes themselves, especially with 2e special rules for some game worlds which could cause problems here.
5e unfortunately does not help much by its unifying approach.
see, of course you can place saltmarsh into fr, but it has nothing to do at all with greyhawk anymore then in your personal approach. But to initiate some planeshift in the case of saltmarsh seems not very feasable, just to leave it in its original surroundings whilst making it accessible from fr.
 

Coroc

Hero
Forgotten Realms and it's Inner and Outer and Transitive Planes are entirely within a Crystal Sphere. If you've got a Spelljammer, you can sail from that Crystal Sphere to the ones around Theros, or Ravnica, or Eberron, or Athas, or Greyhawk, or Krynn, or Mystara, or Blackmoor, etc etc etc.

In that case, you'd be a Planeswalker in MtG terms or a the helm of a Spelljammer, in D&D terms.
yeah, nice thing for a planescape or spelljammer campaign, but for your standard campaign? Fetch the rod of seven parts from seven different worlds or so , is the about the only purpose i can see then.
 

Hatmatter

Explorer
it is not the fact in your example that the plane of fire would be a possible transitional plane between otherwise incompatible worlds, it is the primes themselves, especially with 2e special rules for some game worlds which could cause problems here.
5e unfortunately does not help much by its unifying approach.
see, of course you can place saltmarsh into fr, but it has nothing to do at all with greyhawk anymore then in your personal approach. But to initiate some planeshift in the case of saltmarsh seems not very feasable, just to leave it in its original surroundings whilst making it accessible from fr.
Thank you Coroc. I would love to respond to what you are adding to the conversation here, but I am not quite able to follow. Could you explain what you mean by this:
it is not the fact in your example that the plane of fire would be a possible transitional plane between otherwise incompatible worlds...
In responding to Marandahir's contribution to this discussion, I was merely pointing out my understanding of how the crystal spheres operated in the TSR Spelljammer line and how the current Wizards team seems to regard crystal sphere viz a viz the Material Plane. I did not attempt to suggest that the Elemental Plane of Fire, or any of the Inner Planes, are regarded as a Transitive Plane (I think that is what you mean by "transitional plane"?). Beyond that, I simply did not understand your response.

To be clear, the only real idea that I was responding to from Marandahir's post was in relation to the notion that the Inner Planes and Transitive Planes were within a crystal sphere. I never saw that in print and I never heard that from any of the Wizards people interviewed on Dragon Talk. That's it.

As I indicated, my post is dangerously close to playing fantasy cop...it is all make believe, so I am going to simply keep it there. In some situations when people may not have played Spelljammer or read the Spelljammer material, some clarifications can be useful. But, sometimes they simply rub people the wrong way. Hopefully I have not offended anyone.
 
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Iry

Adventurer
I also use the cloud concept. The D&D cosmology is one Galaxy, while MG is a second, and Eberron is a third. It's possible to go from one Galaxy to the next, but the metaphysical distances are vast.

Or to use a similar example: D&D is Stargate. MG is Stargate Atlantis.
 

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