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The Mystic: Wizard/Psion base class

Empirate

First Post
How about only allowing one school to pick your spells from, with a spellbook functioning as usual, without bonus spells for high Int? That way, it'd become a more psionic-focused class with a few specific tricks thrown in. Powerful tricks, granted, but limited in breadth.

I could also imagine a divine version, using one or two domains to pick spells from.

The binding side of the Mystic isn't much of a problem, I think, since you have to pick four specific vestiges and can't bind anything else, if I understand correctly.


All in all, I believe the Mystic is still more powerful (or at least more versatile) than the current tier 1 classes, or at least that would be my intuition. However, I'd be willing to allow one in my game to see how it works out. Playtesting is really what it boils down to IMO.
 

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RUMBLETiGER

Adventurer
How does the above character class compare to a Wizard who doesn't have a ring of infinite timestop rounds or... whatever.
Then, to assess succinctly, the above character compares as a Gestalt character with a duel casting PrC on top of it to a normal wizard.

Your Mystic sounds roughly to me like:
Focused Specialist Wizard14/Binder4/Spirit Shaman2//Psychic Warrior14/Cerebromancer6.

Compared to a Wizard 20.

But just because it sounds that way to me doesn't mean it can't be playable, or contained. I'd be curious to see it in action. This honestly could be comparable to Druid, which is a Melee combatant/Full caster/Built in combat Cohort.
 
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the Jester

Legend
I'll repeat that your write up of the class in the OP is a mess that doesn't give sufficient information to adequately critique it. But ain't no way I'd let it in my game. Even only half-detailed, it looks extraordinarily broken.

If your goal is "mystic theurge but better," you're starting off on the wrong track to begin with. The MT is well-balanced at pre-epic levels. Just because it's gimped at epic levels doesn't mean anything for pre-epic. A class (especially a base class!) that is flat-out better than the MT is by definition broken.
 

Empirate

First Post
So straight Druids, Clerics, Wizards... are broken, since they're all simply better than any Mystic Theurge build possible? You may be right, but that doesn't mean we don't let people play those classes, correct?

I'd still hold playtesting is in order for such a difficult assessment as this. Sure the class has a lot of options - but are those options really straight out more and/or better than the other tier 1 classes?
 

Eldritch_Lord

Adventurer
Idea: Why not limit spell and power selection to a thematically-paired school and discipline?

Abjuration + Psychometabolism
Conjuration + Psychoportation
Evocation + Psychokinesis
Transmutation + Metacreativity
Divination + Clairsentience
Enchantment + Telepathy

If you have access to just one school and one discipline, I think that would be workable; as with the Beguiler, Warmage, and Dread Necro, such a tight thematic focus tends to drop the power level quite a bit. I don't know if a straight gestalt setup would work, I'd want to see that in play, but I wouldn't have a problem with such a class getting double 9s with that restriction.

Also, those pairings help to balance out the power level a bit. The good schools (Conjuration and Transmutation) are paired with disciplines whose best tricks they already have, while the weaker schools (Enchantment, Evocation, Divination) get a bunch of new effects and can lean on psionics for basic charms, blasting, and auguries and use magic for the more unique effects from their respective schools.
 

the Jester

Legend
So straight Druids, Clerics, Wizards... are broken, since they're all simply better than any Mystic Theurge build possible? You may be right, but that doesn't mean we don't let people play those classes, correct?

I would dispute your assessment, actually. I don't think a single classed wizard 20 is necessarily better than a well-built 20th level MT.

I'd still hold playtesting is in order for such a difficult assessment as this. Sure the class has a lot of options - but are those options really straight out more and/or better than the other tier 1 classes?

In all fairness, the MT looked broken at first too.
 

Empirate

First Post
I would dispute your assessment, actually. I don't think a single classed wizard 20 is necessarily better than a well-built 20th level MT.



In all fairness, the MT looked broken at first too.



At 20th, when the MT finally (FINALLY!!!) reaches 9th level spells, the difference is not so pronounced. But at all levels prior to that, the MT is behind at least one, occasionally two spell levels. Play a 7th level straight Wizard, then a 7th level MT build, and the horrible underpoweredness of the latter will be readily apparent. 20th level builds have very little bearing on actual in-game performance - especially since many, if not most games never reach the highest levels.

The MT did indeed look broken at first - until people actually sat down and tried it out in play. That's why I'm saying "give Mystics a chance!" - gametest them.
 

Empath Negative

First Post
At 20th, when the MT finally (FINALLY!!!) reaches 9th level spells, the difference is not so pronounced. But at all levels prior to that, the MT is behind at least one, occasionally two spell levels. Play a 7th level straight Wizard, then a 7th level MT build, and the horrible underpoweredness of the latter will be readily apparent. 20th level builds have very little bearing on actual in-game performance - especially since many, if not most games never reach the highest levels.

The MT did indeed look broken at first - until people actually sat down and tried it out in play. That's why I'm saying "give Mystics a chance!" - gametest them.



I appreciate your balanced perspective.


As you pointed out the MT, despite what one would think would be amazing synergy, was still considered under performing when compared to a straight caster of either class.

My class begs the question... is anything the mystic can do in a single round significantly more powerful than anything a standard wizard can do in a single round?

If you find the Focused Specialist to be balanced then the answer must be no.

The FS sacrifices a single feat, and three spell schools and gains two bonus spells per level as a trade off. At 9th level this is huge, if only for the metamagic spells you can also put there. Why everyone and their brother isn't a focused spellcaster is a bit beyond me. As a conjuror having a couple extra copies of gate handy will solve almost any problem you can think of, or shapechange, or timestop, or whatever...

So, as a chassis the Mystic is the Focused Spellcaster pared down. Instead of bonus slots and feats he gets access to Psionic Powers..

And that's kind of a hard thing to weigh. So you still have to come back to the question... is anything a mystic does in a single round more potent than what a wizard can do... and the answer is still "No". The argument could be made that the Mystic has greater options than the Focused Mystic... but this would be misleading. The Focused Specialist will use his bonus spell slots for the school of magic he has built his character around, be it evocation, or divinination, or enchantment... whichever. The rest of his slots will be for breadth of option. A psionicist may only ever learn 36 powers I believe, so the Focused Specialist still retains a greater breadth of options. He may not have the same depth (i.e. all of the psionicists power points may be burned for 9th lvl powers... Your average 9th lvl power, used as a 9th lvl power costs 17 power points I believe. If a Psion used every single power point he had to manifest that 17 point ability... he'd get roughly 20 manifestations or... roughly two spells per spell level...

Keep in mind, however that the mystic gets neither bonus spells from intellect, nor bonus power points from charisma.


This of course brings us to the various bonus abilities of the Mystic. Chastise is not a game breaker... and in fact is more thematic than anything else. It is completely unenhancable to my knowledge and works against a relatively small, though pesky, subset of creatures.

Watchful Spirit would almost fall under the same category but it has the potent ability of being able to reroll initiative... which can be extremely useful to a caster... but even watchful spirit cannot compete with the bonus feats a standard wizard receives.

This then is why the Mystic gains access to a single vestige at caster level -5. Naberius, Haures, Balam, Zceryll, and Arete seem to be the only ones that are significant... maybe Shax.
 
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Drowbane

First Post
Were I to take a swing at this, I'd make it a Sorc/Wilder fusion, with Cha as the sole required stat...

Ditto. Both cha casters are "behind a level" compared to their stronger counterparts. If 9th level Arcane / 9th level Psi can be "balanced" (silly term anyways :p), then advancing slower than either the party Wiz or Psi is a good start. A Gestalt Sorc | Wilder minus the Wild Surge would be cool, but roughly on par with an Optimized Wizard or CoDzilla.

Just the thought of having Share Pain (psi 2), Vigor (psi 1), Mirror Image (w/s 2), and Displacement (w/s 3) up at the same time gives me goosebumps.
 

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