The Myth of the Necessity of Magic Items

[DungeonMaester]

I hope we can lay this to rest soon. Actually, I am disappointed no one took me on when I said the magic items need myth was a powergamer myth. Never the less I'll elaborate some.


1) In order to beat the boss we need a 'Cloak of Resistance' to have x saves, a +3 vorpal sword and x other magic items.

I find my self as a Dm making the challenge to be just a bit above par of what the party is capable of. Going in with magic items does a party more harm then good, since the bad guy with have one magic item better..Say like a staff with 5 fireball charages on it.

2) Extreme high magic or extreme low magic campaigns are the way to go.

My campaigns are middle of the road magic, from what I can gather about High/Low magic campaigns. Spell Casters have access to any spell on their core list, and can access one other splat book for other spells. Magic items on the other hand are Rare, as there are legends of artifacts which are super rare. Magic items are scattered about in forgotten battle fields or locked away in temples. Powerful Artifacts are sealed away tightly. Common magic items are wands, potions and scrolls. Magic items do not have 'boast saving throw/stat/skill by x' but other cool effects. Weapons can only be enchanted by 'Bless' or 'Align weapon'

3) Playing a low stat character is zen (or something like that)

If given a choice between powergaming and being able to max out skills HD ect ect, or having rolled or point buy stats players will 99% of the time take the power gaming rather then take a chance and develop the chance stats into a the story. The appeal of IH is everything is Min/maxed for you, so you can go around and hack and slash with out any of that pesky role playing.

I have seen great character backstories come out of low rolls. Its really just denying your self a chance to role play.


---Rusty

 

[Pbartender]

The appeal of IH is everything is Min/maxed for you, so you can go around and hack and slash with out any of that pesky role playing.

Huh... My players look at from the other side of the coin...

Iron Heroes allows them to be good at skills/combat/etc, without needing to min/max, so that they can focus on developing the roleplaying half of the character while still being useful rules-wise.

 

[phindar]

I find my self as a Dm making the challenge to be just a bit above par of what the party is capable of. Going in with magic items does a party more harm then good, since the bad guy with have one magic item better..Say like a staff with 5 fireball charages on it.

I played in a SR game recently where the group did this; everybody had to have the extra 6 dice gear, and really, all that does is make the GM have to run encounters 6 dice tougher (so to speak). The level of challenge is always going to be relatively constant. In a high magic item game, the GM will have to run the party through higher EL encounters, in a low magic item game the ELs will be a little lower. I consider it a "Season to Taste" issue.

 

[DungeonMaester]

Huh... My players look at from the other side of the coin...

Iron Heroes allows them to be good at skills/combat/etc, without needing to min/max, so that they can focus on developing the roleplaying half of the character while still being useful rules-wise.

How I see it, skills are more then numbers, its a part of you personality. When two different class with a close skills list or even the same class and they both have the same skill ranks, then characters look like cookie cutters.

Personally, I would like to take it back a step, and make all skills non numbered, and based on backround. Make it more role playing.

---Rusty

 

[Doghead Thirteen]

After a vague scan of this thread (vague scan, not read-through) it seems like a lot of people are discounting the thing with duplicate items.

If we take the following as a given:

Magical items are SERIOUSLY EXPENSIVE!!!! Then they'll be a bit like ultra-rare collector's items; hard to find a buyer for.

Thus, you can pump an NPC with as many items as you like if:

A) the PC's are already kitted out with those items and,

B) you can only use one each of those items at a time.

I hate the idea of 'magic item Wal-Mart' as it removed 'magic' from the 'magic item'.
So, in any game I run, magic items are for whatever reason RARE.

Maybe they're a pain to make.

Maybe they wear out.

Maybe they're inherently dangerous.

Maybe they go BOOM if the 'bonded user' dies.

But, for whatever reason, anything bigger than a +1 dagger is seriously rare.

 

[Pbartender]

How I see it, skills are more then numbers, its a part of you personality.

Certainly they are, but as was mentioned in another recent thread about powergaming or some such, it's nice to be able to match the numbers with the personality, if you see what I mean. What's the point of having a character with a "world's greatest cat-burglar" personality, for instance, if he can't even pick a lock... What a dissappointment.

Personally, I would like to take it back a step, and make all skills non numbered, and based on backround. Make it more role playing.

Talk to Diaglo... He'll tell you all about it.

 

[DungeonMaester]

I played in a SR game recently where the group did this; everybody had to have the extra 6 dice gear, and really, all that does is make the GM have to run encounters 6 dice tougher (so to speak). The level of challenge is always going to be relatively constant. In a high magic item game, the GM will have to run the party through higher EL encounters, in a low magic item game the ELs will be a little lower. I consider it a "Season to Taste" issue.

And the players had fun right? Sort of like "Wow..I don't need to Cross class four times to have fun...."

---Rusty

 

[jasin]

Other things on my mind:
- saves: maybe magic items are generally more oriented to boost someone's saves rather than spells/SLA's DC, so lack of magic items could make spells slightly more effective than before, but I'm not sure

I think they are. +5 to all saves is 25,000 gp. +3 to DCs (via +6 Int) is 36,000 gp. And the saves can be enhanced further by stat enhancing items.

Looking at out AoW party, almost everyone has +2 cloaks of resistance, and many people (scout, cleric, fighter) have items that boost a stat that modifies a save. Only my wizard has a hat of Int +4, the cleric and the druid have Wis +2 items. So without items DCs would go down by 1-2, saves go down 2-3.

But I think if you're willling to put in the work to keep monsters under control, this shouldn't be too big of a problem. One solution would be to give out a bonus to saves: say +1/5 levels?

 

[DungeonMaester]

Certainly they are, but as was mentioned in another recent thread about powergaming or some such, it's nice to be able to match the numbers with the personality, if you see what I mean. What's the point of having a character with a "world's greatest cat-burglar" personality, for instance, if he can't even pick a lock... What a disappointment.

I have a house rule where skills are role played first. Depending on how you go about it you could get a bonus if you go about it in a intelligent manner. How many ranks and if its a Cross class skill effect it as well. Or if you a moron and go about things moronically you get a penalty. So even if you can max out a skill you can still do well.

If given a choice between IH or D&D I will pick D&D. Monte Cooke has machanics for everything hack and slash with out focusing on role playing. To be fair, its the same thing 3.0/3.5 does, only with x2 book keeping and machanics.

Ah..Hackmaster...My only friend....

---Rusty

 

[green slime]

Yes, but you also believe balance is an illusion.

LOL!