The Nature of Change (or, Understanding Edition Wars)

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Brown Jenkin - but, in my mind, why bring up the idea that 4e is or is not D&D at all if you aren't starting edition wars? What possible difference could it make to you whether or not I claim to be playing D&D when I'm playing 4e? You don't like 4e and don't play it (I assume, and neither do I play it either). But why blatantly state that I'm not playing "real" D&D when playing 4e?

I have tried to consistently say that 4E doesn't feel like D&D to me. If I slipped up somewhere I apologize. I don't doubt that to many people it does feel like D&D to them. The point I was trying to get across was that there are large numbers who don't feel like it is D&D to them and that needs to be considered. To try and shut them down when they are expressing that feeling risks further angering them.

P.S. if you look at the bottom of my post I stated that I don't think 4E sucks, I just prefer 3.x for fantasy role playing. I think it is a good game and will use it for other types of gaming.
 

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On the flavor / "feels like D&D" front:

OK. So I'm probably going to get dogpiled for mentioning this. But I'm going to put this smiley here: B-) - see him? You can't look me in the eyes because it's the intarweb. But can anyone, whether friend or foe of 4E, look McSmiley in his four eyes and tell me/him that 4E does not remind you, in any way, of World of Warcraft?

Because it seems patently obvious to me that 4E is partly the result of someone saying "World of Warcraft has made Blizzard richer than Croesus. It is a fantasy game that has reached dizzying heights of profit and market penetration. We've gotta get in on some of that!" And then proceeded to make D&D more like World of Warcraft. I mean, does anyone really and honestly (if people can be real and honest on a computer) think that there isn't at least some of that operative in the design principles? Because then that would make a lot of design decisions seem like remarkable coincidences.

I can understand thinking "we need to make this more like what the kids are into these days". I think that's tragically flawed reasoning, though, because you're probably better off building on your brand identity rather than trying to reinvent it. Especially if you're trying to compete with something you can't actually compete with (they're separate pursuits).

Anyway, flame on I guess. But it's obvious to me that this reasoning was a factor.
 

On the flavor / "feels like D&D" front:

OK. So I'm probably going to get dogpiled for mentioning this. But I'm going to put this smiley here: B-) - see him? You can't look me in the eyes because it's the intarweb. But can anyone, whether friend or foe of 4E, look McSmiley in his four eyes and tell me/him that 4E does not remind you, in any way, of World of Warcraft?

I can't look at any edition of D&D and honestly say that it looks nothing like WoW.

Because it seems patently obvious to me that 4E is partly the result of someone saying "World of Warcraft has made Blizzard richer than Croesus. It is a fantasy game that has reached dizzying heights of profit and market penetration. We've gotta get in on some of that!" And then proceeded to make D&D more like World of Warcraft. I mean, does anyone really and honestly (if people can be real and honest on a computer) think that there isn't at least some of that operative in the design principles? Because then that would make a lot of design decisions seem like remarkable coincidences.

Since WoW is, itself, based on at least some of the principles that have always powered D&D (and fantasy roleplay more generally), it would be nigh impossible for any game that felt at all like D&D not to have at least a few things in common with WoW.

But, assuming you're specifically talking about elements in WoW that didn't show up somewhere else first, I don't really know. Not having played WoW, I'm not really sure what (if anything) it does that's really original. My opinion of Blizzard games is that generally they don't do a whole ton in the way of innovation; they more commonly polish and balance the motherloving crap out of tried-and-true ideas (in the process often ending up with the best/most popular example of the genre).

So, while some of the things may well have been most recently swiped from WoW, they look to me like a natural progression from late-3E developments (with some pieces of the progression missing because they were thrown out or transmuted during the playtesting of 4E rather than being released as supplements).

I can understand thinking "we need to make this more like what the kids are into these days". I think that's tragically flawed reasoning, though, because you're probably better off building on your brand identity rather than trying to reinvent it. Especially if you're trying to compete with something you can't actually compete with (they're separate pursuits).

I don't see anything in the game that specifically targets WoW fans, but then, I don't play WoW and there might be some.

*Whether or not any given fact about a system is problematic is, of course, up to the individual to decide. But the issues addressed by and large were ones that I know I saw a lot of people on internet message boards complain about. Some of them bugged me specifically.
 


Actually there have been some pretty extensive reasons listed in numerous places, which revolve around actual game play or the books themselves.

The reason I consider it a step backwards is because of what roleplaying games grew out of and what is unique about them. We all know that RPGs grew out of tactical strategy games, where you were essentially pushing historical army units around on a board, battling other armies to see if you can out-general your opponent. One day Gygax and Arneson decided to apply the basics of that game to allow you to simulate a single character in a fantasy world. His inspirations were fantasy fiction, which I'm not going to cite because we all know the story.

So while RPGs included simulated combat as a core element, the tactical element was de-emphasized and it instead placed an emphasis on recreating your favorite fantasy stories. In short, it was intentionally about simulationism, not gamism.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't HATE 4E. It did some things right, such as making your BAB and saving throws based on 1/2 level + ability modifier and then spread character progression over 30 levels. This really takes care of the problem with 3.x being difficult to play at higher levels and it spreads out the playable levels well beyond what they are in 3.x. If they would have done that and then added in a few of the tweaks from the Star Wars SAGA edition, I think it probably would have worked.

Instead, I see 4E deficient in three key areas.

1. Gamism. The rules focus on combat only. The rules that allowed you to interact with the world in ways that don't involve combat were mostly stripped out of the system. On top of that, while I like the basic concept of powers, I think they got way too carried away with them, making it so that combat revolved around them. Why even bother to include special combat actions and feats if you're going to just build them into the class powers? Also, since your at-will powers automatically double weapon damage, why would you not use them? They're too good. You're never going to choose to not use them, which leads to combat being very repetitive. I prefer the method of having your regular attacks modified by feats. Then there's all the forced movement, and the counters indicating various combat conditions of varying durations. It appears to have been meant to make combat more dynamic, but to many, adds complication back into combat and makes it less fun. To me, this looks like the game is moving closer to its wargaming roots, which is something that I personally don't like. I feel that the right area for gamism and simulationism is somewhere in between 3.5 and True20. 4E is a fine miniatures game, and it's fun in its own right, but I have more fun with 3.5 for actual roleplaying.

2. Layout, white space, and wasted space. With the large font size, the reduced number of character races and classes, magic items, spells, and the amount of space in the books that is literally wasted, I can't help but compare it side to side with 3.5 and wonder what the reason was for excluding so much stuff. I'll avoid projecting motives on WotC, but I will say that I feel like I'm getting less game for more money. Sure, spend more money on more books and get the options you're missing, but I want a core that's a little more complete and more consistent with the past couple editions of D&D. The powers themselves are large, spread out, and colored in where they could be greatly condensed, saving space, which would provide room for some of the things they decided not to include. Yeah, I'm not a fan of powers in the first place, but those things are space wasters. Then the things they chose to cut in favor of the new things they chose to include is just puzzling.

This doesn't even begin to address the fact that combat grinds. There are plenty of tangible reasons people aren't enjoying it.


Hey, I don't need telling :). I was just trying to empathise a little. For me it's a flavour thing but clearly the flavour stems from the ruleset and the ruleset is gamist. I was trying (in my own clumsy way) to work out why the whole edition thing is so emotive. There's clearly more to it than just rules - it's an ownership thing. Those of us who feel that 4E has gone the wrong way feel like 'our' game has been taken away from us. That makes these edition discussions quite highly charged and 4E players can't be blamed for feeling put upon. ('You LIKE 4E? But 4E is a travesty! Give it back! I hope it fails and Wizards fail and then we'll get it back!').

I think even the most avid supporter would concede that the switch has not been anywhere near as smooth or universal as WotC would have hoped. They sold a lot of core books (though I was surprised by the Edition Switch Poll - I thought that the D&D 3x players would have almost universally bought the books) but the edition may not have the longevity they hoped for (it's too early to tell, though the ES poll is not great reading).
 


One thing to remember about the New Coke- Classic Coke story is that when they brought back Coke Classic, it wasn't the same as the original Coke. They took the opportunity to change over to corn syrup for the sweetener instead of sugar. If you want a true-ish Coke Classic you have to get them from Mexico.
 



On the flavor / "feels like D&D" front:

OK. So I'm probably going to get dogpiled for mentioning this. But I'm going to put this smiley here: B-) - see him? You can't look me in the eyes because it's the intarweb. But can anyone, whether friend or foe of 4E, look McSmiley in his four eyes and tell me/him that 4E does not remind you, in any way, of World of Warcraft?

Because it seems patently obvious to me that 4E is partly the result of someone saying "World of Warcraft has made Blizzard richer than Croesus. It is a fantasy game that has reached dizzying heights of profit and market penetration. We've gotta get in on some of that!" And then proceeded to make D&D more like World of Warcraft. I mean, does anyone really and honestly (if people can be real and honest on a computer) think that there isn't at least some of that operative in the design principles? Because then that would make a lot of design decisions seem like remarkable coincidences.

I can understand thinking "we need to make this more like what the kids are into these days". I think that's tragically flawed reasoning, though, because you're probably better off building on your brand identity rather than trying to reinvent it. Especially if you're trying to compete with something you can't actually compete with (they're separate pursuits).

Anyway, flame on I guess. But it's obvious to me that this reasoning was a factor.

I don't intend this as flame-on, it's meant to be honest disagreement: I don't see it.
I also don't play WoW, which might not make me the best judge of this, but the specific design principles that they share seem to be shared because they're clever game-design principles.

There have been back-and-forth arguments about this; I don't remember a single mechanic which was sourced exclusively from WoW and not from an earlier source just as reasonably. Doesn't mean there aren't any -- just that I've got a bad memory!
 

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