The New Forgotten Realms - (About) A Year Later

It's only three or four posters here, really. If you read any 4e FR thread you can pick 'em out and put them on your Ignore List pretty quick. I'd like to say that I hate recommending the use of the Ignore List function but, really, I don't. Being petty pays off. :D
So, because I've posted here that I really don't like 4th edition Forgotten Realms and believe that at least a a "significant minority" (your words) of Realms fans didn't like it that I'm going to go on a bunch of Ignore lists? Somehow I doubt there are only four of us on ENWorld that don't like what was done to the setting and believe we aren't alone and can be outspoken about it at times.

Out in the real world, away from internet message boards, I know of more groups playing 3.x than 4e, and I don't know of anybody who is playing 4e Realms.

Why has it dropped off the face of discussion? Well, I don't bring it up because it seems like there is no point to it. It's not like WotC is going to say "Oops, we screwed up and ruined our most famous setting, let's set everything back to the way it was", and it seems that the D&D community is irreparably suffered a significant schism over 4e and things tied to it like the Spellplague in FR, so just going back and forth about it seems to be counterproductive.

Personally, when I have the time I still play 3.5 FR with my friends and assume that the Spellplague never happened (we did have fun once with an adventure where a Chronomancer came back saying he came from after a horrible apocalypse where Mystra was slain by Shar and the world was ravaged and sundered and the Weave was fading fast, but we prevented that timeline :) ).
 

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So, because I've posted here that I really don't like 4th edition Forgotten Realms and believe that at least a a "significant minority" (your words) of Realms fans didn't like it that I'm going to go on a bunch of Ignore lists? Somehow I doubt there are only four of us on ENWorld that don't like what was done to the setting and believe we aren't alone and can be outspoken about it at times.

Out in the real world, away from internet message boards, I know of more groups playing 3.x than 4e, and I don't know of anybody who is playing 4e Realms.

Why has it dropped off the face of discussion? Well, I don't bring it up because it seems like there is no point to it. It's not like WotC is going to say "Oops, we screwed up and ruined our most famous setting, let's set everything back to the way it was", and it seems that the D&D community is irreparably suffered a significant schism over 4e and things tied to it like the Spellplague in FR, so just going back and forth about it seems to be counterproductive.

Personally, when I have the time I still play 3.5 FR with my friends and assume that the Spellplague never happened (we did have fun once with an adventure where a Chronomancer came back saying he came from after a horrible apocalypse where Mystra was slain by Shar and the world was ravaged and sundered and the Weave was fading fast, but we prevented that timeline :) ).

Actually, "significant minority" were my words, not his. And I don't know if 4e Realms haters are a significant minority or not, but I strongly suspect they are actually an insignificant but loud minority.

If you personally don't care for the new treatment of the Realms, that doesn't say anything bad about you nor make you a "hater" nor earn you a spot on anybody's ignore lists (at least not fairly).

But if you whine everytime the 4e Realms is mentioned and bemoan endlessly the "destruction" of your beloved setting and make the assumption that "true" Realms fans all agree with you, because how could they not? . . . then you are a "hater" and deserve addition to an ignore list for those of us tired of the hyperbole.

Does wingsandsword fall into that category? I don't know . . . nobody threw any mud your way personally, so try not to take direct offense.
 

I'm with Shemeska here; I utterly disliked it when it came out, and I still utterly dislike it.

I'm still running a pre-Spellplague FR campaign (and I will keep running FR campaigns every now and then in the future, too) but I'm more or less moving into Golarion. Why? Because it reminds me of the "Old Realms" in scope and quality of lore, and it's supported in three monthly publications (adventures and supplements). I guess you could say that FR still gets supported via DDi (and I'm excluding LFR material here), but we already had that when Dragon was still in the hands of Paizo. So comparing the support FR gets these days to the 3E era makes the former look like FR is on life support, and fading fast. Frankly, I think WoTC sees FR as a novel setting first and foremost; LFR may be doing good (or not; I can't say one way or the other) but I suspect the sales for FRCG were not nearly as good as they expected (hence the sudden "only-three-books-per-setting"-policy, which was announced, I think, after the sales data for FRCG started coming in).

BTW, I find it funny that when the "h4ters" claimed the voting system was "abused" by 4E fans and this was the only reason why 4E won so many EnNies (a ridiculous claim, IMO), people rose in defence of WoTC by saying that the results actually showed how popular 4E really is among gamers (which I agree with). Now, when someone says that very same award (and/or the lack of existing FR threads on several boards) could be used to make some conclusions about the popularity, success and quality of 4E FR, suddenly this award seems to be some vague and obscure backyard trophy that's only given to the judges' best friends and therefore not indicative of anything (alright, that's hyperbole, but you get the point).

To me, the EnNies represent the opinions of the majority of the active international online gamer community; whether it's indicative of the true opinions of the gamer community worldwide or not depends on the number of voters (I'd say that over a thousand voters is probably a pretty good sampling).
 

BTW, I find it funny that when the "h4ters" claimed the voting system was "abused" by 4E fans and this was the only reason why 4E won so many EnNies (a ridiculous claim, IMO), people rose in defence of WoTC by saying that the results actually showed how popular 4E really is among gamers (which I agree with). Now, when someone says that very same award (and/or the lack of existing FR threads on several boards) could be used to make some conclusions about the popularity, success and quality of 4E FR, suddenly this award seems to be some vague and obscure backyard trophy that's only given to the judges' best friends and therefore not indicative of anything (alright, that's hyperbole, but you get the point).

To me, the EnNies represent the opinions of the majority of the active international online gamer community; whether it's indicative of the true opinions of the gamer community worldwide or not depends on the number of voters (I'd say that over a thousand voters is probably a pretty good sampling).

I have never defended the Ennies - so there is no "funny". And while it is indeed a good picture of what at least the online D&D community thinks, it's still the judges that pick the products - so if a product is not nominated, it doesn't matter just how many people would have voted for it.

As for the friends' of judges, lets not go there. The Ennies are over, the judge won't be the next year, and the product didn't win anything.
 

The big thing with Forgotten Realms was that in the past, Forgotten Realms was far more something you read than something you played. This statement applies as much to the RPG books as it does to the Novels. I personally find the 3E Forgotten Realms books written more to be read than to be used as a gaming manual. While the setting was played by many, it was owned and read by many more, and fans of reading the Forgotten Realms were a large portion of its playerbase.

4E kind of blew up Forgotten Realms as something you read, and tried to recast it as something meant first and foremost to be played. The dust hasn't settled yet, and I don't think it will until we see the results of whether the Novels and RPGA can reestablish the Realms again.
 

4E kind of blew up Forgotten Realms as something you read, and tried to recast it as something meant first and foremost to be played..

Bingo. and exactly the same type of product (meant to be "used" instead of "read") The OGB and say FR1-FR6-ish were. Precisely why I think the 4E FRCG is the best version since that OGB. 2E/3E FR GAME products seemed mostly to be playgrounds for wannabe FR Novel Authors (with a few exceptions).
 

Frankly, I think WoTC sees FR as a novel setting first and foremost; LFR may be doing good (or not; I can't say one way or the other) but I suspect the sales for FRCG were not nearly as good as they expected (hence the sudden "only-three-books-per-setting"-policy, which was announced, I think, after the sales data for FRCG started coming in).

The three book release schedule for campaign settings was announced at the 2008 GAMA, which happened at the end of April, four months prior to the release of the 4e FRCS. The sales of the FR books had nothing to do with it, and I doubt they were as small as you think they are.
 

I have watched FR since the grey box and 2e (well, I started in 2e and bought the grey box; my perspective is there, just not chronologically grey box).

Anywho, FR started as this really great little setting. I sat alone in my room listening to the Chieftains, and thinking about that backwater area called the Dales, and how cool Myth Drannor and Undermountain must be as Iconic adventure sites. I played in Undermountain; then we'd skip over to Ravenloft for our RPing, then escape and get to Undermountain; conceptually weird, but that was our group.
I got the Bloodstone trilogy, and dreamed about (but never achieved) a game in them. Stark contrast in terms of tone and quality, but I learned to be forgiving with FR.

3e had the gem of the FRCS. It really holds up as a great, mostly non-crunch, little book. Some other fun books have come out, but 3e had a lot of FR splatbooks designed to fill up space on my shelves without a real payoff.

3e in general was designed to try to be a simulation for how this stuff worked rather than an engine for adventure games (like 4e is). As such, the design principle for NPC heroes, the idea that people other than the PCs were available to save the world, was common practice. Having a dozen splatbooks detailing every corner of this fantasy world came down to the idea that someone somewhere was going to use all these numbers and characters, punch them into a computer, and make them go.

A little clockwork world.

I don't think many books really captured the essence of FR, including a number of the novels. The Drizzt books, and most of what Ed Greenwood wrote, rarely hit the mark for what FR meant to me. They were fun, for sure. Heck, I read a Drizzt book in the span of a Tom Waits CD.
[sblock=ooc]and I'm not even old! Interesting fact, my friends are the producers of this show called "once a thief", and they'd just ended the series by exploding the protagonists. The chief, whose actress was fantastic, was the only survivor and walked through the wreckage with Tom Waits' "it's Time, time, time" playing.
So my mother gets the CD, I steal it for the day, and I pop it in when I cracked open the book, the one where Wulfgar "dies". I kid you not, I made it to the chapter where, obviously, he gets it and THE SECOND I DO Tom Waits starts singing "it's Time, Time, Time", and I'm like "nooooooooooo!"
That is cool.
The book was predictable, and RA Salvatore thinks it's acceptable to name the king of the Dwarves "Melvin MuffinMasher" or something stupid (because, I suppose, all of us are also stupid), but that is a cool story.
And I complain about the names because Drizzt has the potential to be such a cool series, but the goofiness ruins the tone every time.[/sblock]

The only book I would say is worth reading is "City of Splendours" by Ed Greenwood and Elaine Cunningham. The best EG book I've ever read, and Elaine is phenominal as always. All the aspects of books I've read by either of them, but concentrated and matured stylistically, and I genuinely enjoyed the read. Go buy it now. Skip the parts with the famous NPCs, maybe, although even those are ok.

Moving on: For the above reasons, I don't have a big issue with FR4e. I don't know that FR ever wasn't a conglomorate setting. I think the timeline shift was important, and I agree that the thinning of the chaffe was very much needed.
Genasi and Swordmages are pure win in 4e, full stop.

I don't know that I agree with what they did to Halister Blackcloak, as he was by no means a hero. Killing off the uber-mages was a must. Mystra was a PC, and didn't make sense in a world with so many evil mages. Massive plot hole: "the effectual gods are all against your foes and you can't possibly lose".

I always play in my own setting. If I went back to high school, I would go back to the FR that I used to know (maybe). I won't be re-buying any FR books, I don't need them updated to 4e. I might buy modules. I'm too old for the books (except maybe cunningham's; she is an all-star).
 

Bingo. and exactly the same type of product (meant to be "used" instead of "read") The OGB and say FR1-FR6-ish were. Precisely why I think the 4E FRCG is the best version since that OGB. 2E/3E FR GAME products seemed mostly to be playgrounds for wannabe FR Novel Authors (with a few exceptions).

The thing is, the wannabe FR Novel Author fans(which I would call a majority or at the least a sizeable minority of 3.5E era's FR fans) got abandoned by the 4E switch, and FR's bad reputation among non-FR fans as a playground for wannabe FR Novel Authors hasn't been broken enough to allow a full recovery.

We'll see what two more years of 4E novels and two more years of RPGA can do. It doesn't help that 4E Eberron were much better written game books.
 

I have never defended the Ennies - so there is no "funny". And while it is indeed a good picture of what at least the online D&D community thinks, it's still the judges that pick the products - so if a product is not nominated, it doesn't matter just how many people would have voted for it.

As for the friends' of judges, lets not go there. The Ennies are over, the judge won't be the next year, and the product didn't win anything.

Sorry, Jack... that was a bit of a hyperbole on my part to drive the point home (I didn't mean to single you out or insult you); I was referring to the fact that a lot of posters (at least on other boards) claimed that the result was "rigged" because you could vote multiple times, and this was countered by people defending the EnNies and saying that this vote is a proof of 4E's success (and I think it is).

As for the judges picking the products... I don't always agree with their nominations, but usually they pick the "best" of the year's publications (and both from mainstream RPGs and indie RPGs). For example, I don't think many people would actually say that Mouse Guard or CthulhuTech didn't deserve to be nominated. Therefore, I think the list is pretty reliable on the "quality stuff published this year" (I've compared the lists from the previous years, and I have to say that from my perspective the EnNies nominations are 90% "dead on"). Now, I'm fairly sure (based on what I've seen and heard about the books) that Eberron will make the list next year, and maybe even win the gold. However, the fact that 4E FR didn't even the list, and maybe I just missed it, but I haven't even seen any threads about this being a surprise to 4E FR fans (in fact, apart from the Candlekeep and the WoTC boards, which have seen very little activity during the last year -- also according to the numbers posted by Lord Karsus, there have been only a few threads about FR). To me it tells a story that FR is less popular than ever before; nobody really seems to care one way or the other. YMMV, of course. ;)

FRPG may have sold well because of the Drow, Genasi and Swordmage, but if I had to take a wild guess I'd say that the *vast* majority of the guys who brought the book play either in an Eberron or homebrewed setting.
 

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