I would never have been able to get into the Realms if not for the semi-reboot for the same reasons. Honestly, my biggest problem with the Spellplague is that not enough time has gone by - Dwarves and Elves will likely have first hand knowledge of what happened, and the players have to make something up to fill in that gap.
The New Forgotten Realms - (About) A Year Later
- Thread starter Mercurius
- Start date
No, I think that was the *wellhouses* and wells of Waterdeep, and it was Ed Greenwood's reply to my question on Candlekeep (or maybe you thought about his "generic" reply to outhouses and what people in the Realms use for toilet paper?). If this wasn't what you referred to, I'm not kidding here; those are actual questions answered by Ed.
In all seriousness, my players love this sort of details, and sometimes they catch me by surprise when they ask about, say, local architecture or holidays or fashion or famous personalities and so on (sometimes it's out of curiosity, sometimes there's a mechanical or story reason such as the rogue's player wanting to know which sort of drainpipes are used in the city buildings and what material are they made of).
Anyway, regardless of the fact that I'm playing with pedantic and curious people, we all know that not everything needs to be "ultra-realistic" or 100% according to the canon. When I sit at another FR DM's game, I'm not upset if his campaign features, for example, Azoun IV's twin sons (as we know, he had no living sons). Or Bane never returned, and his son Iyachtu Xvim is still the God of Tyranny. Or Neverwinter's lord was killed by the Kraken Society, and now his step-daughter rules the city. And so on. As long as these changes to the canon are plausible and explained, I don't care; in many cases stuff like this has actually made the campaign more interesting and the world feel more "alive".
Keefe the Thief
Adventurer
And here we have the problem in a nutshell, which is repeated in gaming groups and on the internet: "If you change details of FR go on! As long as those changes make sense for me as a lore-lover, of course." THIS is the root of the "lore tyranny" discussion: "I don´t mind your changes as long as i like them."
Plausible? A FR DM should be free to change what he likes how he likes it. But - no offense meant, Primal - i´ve encountered this opinion before, both on the internet and in real life. "You´re free to change stuff, but not THIS stuff, because me, the lore-guy, says this makes no sense. And i´m not going to tell you what THIS stuff is before you actually change it, because for a TRUE lover of the realms, it should be obvious!"
No thanks. This was the real reason why i started my Grey Box Campaign: nobody in my group has a clue about that timeline, so nobody can tell me that my changes were "not plausible."
Derulbaskul
Explorer
I still believe that the new FR would have had a much more positive reception if the map hadn't been one of the worst maps ever published in the history of RPG publishing. The problem with my previous sentence is that I don't think I'm exaggerating!
One of the strengths of FR since the first, and now legendary, grey box was the quality of the maps. But the latest map? Crap with a capital K.
Look at the Eberron maps: they're arguably an improvement on the 3.5E ones and certainly no worse.
For FR only one map was done so even the regional close ups in both the FRCG and FRPG include no additional features that a close-up would normally show, not even the features described in a region's write-up!
So, as much as I know that there is bad blood about the content and direction of the post-Spellplague Realms, a lot of that ill-feeling, IMO, could have been prevented if WotC had put together some really good maps.
As for the setting itself, I like it and use it. Why? Simply because I like WotC's electronic tools so much so I just can't be bothered recreating the 3.5E flavour of the races, in particular, because I can't custom-build them in the Character Generator yet. That said, as soon as I can, I wouldn't be surprised if I go back to the pre-Spellplague Realms but I also may not.
One of the strengths of FR since the first, and now legendary, grey box was the quality of the maps. But the latest map? Crap with a capital K.
Look at the Eberron maps: they're arguably an improvement on the 3.5E ones and certainly no worse.
For FR only one map was done so even the regional close ups in both the FRCG and FRPG include no additional features that a close-up would normally show, not even the features described in a region's write-up!
So, as much as I know that there is bad blood about the content and direction of the post-Spellplague Realms, a lot of that ill-feeling, IMO, could have been prevented if WotC had put together some really good maps.
As for the setting itself, I like it and use it. Why? Simply because I like WotC's electronic tools so much so I just can't be bothered recreating the 3.5E flavour of the races, in particular, because I can't custom-build them in the Character Generator yet. That said, as soon as I can, I wouldn't be surprised if I go back to the pre-Spellplague Realms but I also may not.
Nope don't read Candlekeep and I'm not surprised in the least that people ask that sort of thing. I just meant that it seemed there was a Volo's guide to freaking everything and other FR products got to the point where someone could say "Oh no, 3 streets over, 2 blocks up is a bookshop" while running around Waterdeep. This is either great for the immersiveness of it all or irritating when the DM wants to not get dragged in there. "There's no bookshop over there" "Yes there is, page 47 of blah blah" "He's on vacation" is an argument you shouldn't have to have several times a night.
For me there is a difference in knowing local holidays, what style of architecture things are, who some of the famous locals are and having a storefront by storefront listing of half the city, which the old FR certainly felt like at times. Ptolus was a product that had a distinct mix of this. Monte had things like a sample menu for one of the restaurants, citizenship papers, gun permits, and he did detail many of the locations in the various areas. There were also many left open and the point of the product was specifically a single city that was highly detailed. It is a delicate balance. Enough detail to make it feel lived in and enough blank space for the DM to play with.
Hussar
Legend
I remember seeing more than a couple of editorial letters in Dragon and Dungeon talking about exactly this. A generic module sells far and away better than a campaign specific one, simply because there are people who don't play that given setting who will not even open the cover, let alone buy the product to mine for information all on the idea that this is for a "specific" campaign world.
I dont see how people adventured in 3.5 FR. There were way too many npcs to make it worth it. Every last detail of the world was known. There was literally nothing for the dm or group to do at all. At least thats the way I felt about it. The 3.5 campaign guide spelled everything out there was no mystery in it. No unknown villian. There was really nothing interesting in old forgotten realms.
The generic area things they added into the 4E FR book are really the worst part of the entire book. I like that for the core adventure series they would post free articles talking about how you would fit this area into X campaign world. Helps you take the more generic adventure and find a very appropriate place for it within other settings.
You have to hand it to WotC, they do understand that the generic will sell better than the campaign specific. That info on how to fit it into your existing campaign world could also be included in the adventure, but it is something that fits well as a web enhancement too. It will be very interesting to see how they will suggest runnig some of those adventures in Dark Sun tho heh.
You have to hand it to WotC, they do understand that the generic will sell better than the campaign specific. That info on how to fit it into your existing campaign world could also be included in the adventure, but it is something that fits well as a web enhancement too. It will be very interesting to see how they will suggest runnig some of those adventures in Dark Sun tho heh.
TheYeti1775
Adventurer
Anyone want to explain the Spell-Plague to a non-4e guy?
The way it reads from this thread it's akin to the Cataclysm within Dragonlance, only it's a present times calmity between 3.5E and 4E vice a past tense happening at the start of Dragonlance.
The way it reads from this thread it's akin to the Cataclysm within Dragonlance, only it's a present times calmity between 3.5E and 4E vice a past tense happening at the start of Dragonlance.
EATherrian
First Post
I would play in the 4E Realms, but the CG just doesn't give me any real inspiration for the DM side. As a player I'm open to any and all settings, but so much of the Realms seemed ham-fisted that I just don't enjoy reading the book. I know I'm strange in that I like to actually read gaming books, but I'm always looking for details and little things I can use. I can see how Abeir could be interesting but there wasn't enough information for me to figure out how to flesh it. I love when I have historical guides to settings, since it lets me extrapolate where the setting will go and how. Without that for Abeir it's like an open sore in the world to me. Plus my favorite FR region (Mulhorand) is gone. I was actually all excited to join the RPGA until I heard it was going to be LFR. I still kick myself for not doing it while Living Greyhawk was running, but I didn't realize it was a limited time thing.
Scribble
First Post
It's mostly past tense, in tat the majority of it's cataclysmic effects happened well before the start of the campaign setting.
There are still some lingering effects in the present campaign setting, however.
UniversalMonster
First Post
This week the LFR adventure I am running takes place in some Mulhorandi ruins in a recently surfaced area of the Raurin desert. It's a MyRealms adventure, which means I wrote it myself. I loved Mulhorand too. Which is why I am featuring it in Living Realms!
Tilenas
Explorer
Well, all that depends on your playing style. If your heroes set out to save the world from the get-go, then there will always be some big-ass NPC who beats them to it.
But I, for one, like a more small-scale, more intimate campaign, where the PCs face issues and adversaries that simply aren't worth anyone else's while. Obviously, this style of play is mainly suited for low-level characters.
For more experienced PCs I'd say that there's so much going on in the Realms, you could easily rule that every hero-NPC is caught up with thwarting a villain-NPC. The PCs are there to tip that balance.
darkranger65
First Post
I have just come back to D&D after 4 years. I have played 3 sessions (player once and DM twice), all based in the realms, and I think the new Realms fits the heroic aspect of the 4th edition rules. Granted the players are barely 2nd level but the game ran really smooth and the players (2 where familiar the old realms) enjoyed it and were not bothered by the changes.
Renshai
First Post
I played in the Forgotten Realms since the early articles in Dragon Magazine and the release of the Gray Boxed set. For me, the Realms reached their height when Steven Schend wrote the Empires of the Shining Sea and Lands of Intrigue. To this date I judge all roleplaying supplements by comparing them to those two products. I got more enjoyment and ideas from them that I have from anything else.
As a long time collector of Realmslore and products, the 4E setting was kind of a slap in the face. My old maps were mostly useless, my old supplements made obsolete other than for historical reference.
I tried to give it a chance, I read the Camapign Guide and the Player's Guide at least twice each after buying them, and I couldn't help but feel like I'd been cheated each time I read them. They just don't seem to have the depth previous products had.
So, I tried running the core 4E adventures in the implied setting, but ended up feeling like there wasn't enough depth. I don't like Eberron either.. so I left 4E behind and returned to WFRP.
As a long time collector of Realmslore and products, the 4E setting was kind of a slap in the face. My old maps were mostly useless, my old supplements made obsolete other than for historical reference.
I tried to give it a chance, I read the Camapign Guide and the Player's Guide at least twice each after buying them, and I couldn't help but feel like I'd been cheated each time I read them. They just don't seem to have the depth previous products had.
So, I tried running the core 4E adventures in the implied setting, but ended up feeling like there wasn't enough depth. I don't like Eberron either.. so I left 4E behind and returned to WFRP.
Call me bizarro, but, while I didn't run the Realms often, I never ran into the problem of "WELL WHY DOESN'T <NPC> FIX IT." Just pause and think about how many villains there are in FR. If a player asks why a certain NPC isn't coming to help, what do you do as a DM?
You raise your eyebrows and say "Well, that IS a good question, isn't it?"
Bam. Instant plot thread.
Maybe they can investigate it after they're done with their quest. Maybe a short side quest will show that <NPC> is holding back another group of villains to ensure that the PCs are able to defeat the Big Bad (And as a player, it feels awesome knowing that the NPC isn't swooping in to save the day, but is working for me, not with me). Or maybe they meet <NPC> only to find that the Big Bad has done something to remove them, either draining their power or holding them in check somehow.
You raise your eyebrows and say "Well, that IS a good question, isn't it?"
Bam. Instant plot thread.
Maybe they can investigate it after they're done with their quest. Maybe a short side quest will show that <NPC> is holding back another group of villains to ensure that the PCs are able to defeat the Big Bad (And as a player, it feels awesome knowing that the NPC isn't swooping in to save the day, but is working for me, not with me). Or maybe they meet <NPC> only to find that the Big Bad has done something to remove them, either draining their power or holding them in check somehow.
Spellplague (longer than I intended)
When you are introduced to the 4th Ed Realms, the Spellplague is old news. Pretty much no humans who were around for it still live, and they seem to be the most populous race still. Most Elves who were alive when it all happened should be expected to know what it was like (this is my biggest problem with the "only" 100 year jump), and a lot of Dwarves would also know what happened. Some areas are still dangerous directly because of the lingering effects of the plague, but by now it is mostly a case of people congregated together a century ago, and now the intervening areas are overrun by dangerous things again. - giving more room for adventurers.
In theory, people who have been playing in the Forgotten Realms for a while can still enjoy the setting's history, but in a more detached way. A lot of the nations are still there, but with subtle changes to keep them interesting for someone with 20 years of knowledge. Like someone here did, they can visit the ruins of a favorite area that no longer exists, maybe find magic items that belonged to a cherished 3.5E character. In reality, it seems like the biggest fans of the "old" realms are upset because they don't want a detached history, or they don't like the nations that were preserved.
You're basically right about it being a cataclysm event. The story we have is that roughly 100 years before the 4th Edition setting, Cyric (evil god) murdered Mystra (good god who happened to own or control all magic - I'm fuzzy on that). When this happened, the magic Weave that was under Mystra's control went wild - think a fire hose, but with magic instead of water, and a populated world instead of a crowded sidewalk. When this hose whipped around, a twin world (Aebir) crossed with Toril, with tracts of land getting exchanged in some places. This brought over a continent of Genasi, a nation of Dragonborn and some places vanished. In addition, some living things were changed by the Spellplague and some terrain features were warped - partially draining a sea, making a plain into a desert, and sinking a big area into the Underdark.
When you are introduced to the 4th Ed Realms, the Spellplague is old news. Pretty much no humans who were around for it still live, and they seem to be the most populous race still. Most Elves who were alive when it all happened should be expected to know what it was like (this is my biggest problem with the "only" 100 year jump), and a lot of Dwarves would also know what happened. Some areas are still dangerous directly because of the lingering effects of the plague, but by now it is mostly a case of people congregated together a century ago, and now the intervening areas are overrun by dangerous things again. - giving more room for adventurers.
In theory, people who have been playing in the Forgotten Realms for a while can still enjoy the setting's history, but in a more detached way. A lot of the nations are still there, but with subtle changes to keep them interesting for someone with 20 years of knowledge. Like someone here did, they can visit the ruins of a favorite area that no longer exists, maybe find magic items that belonged to a cherished 3.5E character. In reality, it seems like the biggest fans of the "old" realms are upset because they don't want a detached history, or they don't like the nations that were preserved.
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I'm left wondering if it wouldn't have been better for the realms to not make it friendly towards DM's at home. I used the Realms in 2e and 3e for what I use the 4e core setting for now, stealing bits and bpieces to use in my own homebrew, and I have a feeling that most people who bought FR materials were of that mold. I didn't want to take FR in its entirety, but I did buy 3 FR books in 3e which were of interest to me: The Silver Marches, The Moonsea, and the FR Campaign Guide. I didn't care about the rest, though I would have also bought a sourcebook on the Dales if one had been released.
I didn't buy the 4e FRCG or the FRPG, but I did just buy the Scepter Tower of Spellguard. I did this because it matches up very well with the Ruins of Fastormel on the shores of Lake Nen rather than because I care about the ancient wizards of Netheril. The modular nature of 4e's core flavour makes my reliance on FR for high fantasy locations, history and storylines to poach much reduced. I'd prefer if my D&D flavour text doesn't come with FR baggage. Heck, I've come to the realization that I like Greyhawk flavour after 4e wrenched the classic Greyhawk villains and dungeons from their moorings in the campaign setting... though I am still bored stiff by the setting I read about in the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer.
So if they were going to switch tacks and stop using FR as its vehicle for delivering adventures, locales, and other flavour text, and there were only planning to release 3 RPG books outside the core 3, then maybe they should have just left the setting as it was. Sure, it might be better as a novel setting, or you wouldn't want to play it unless you were in the RPGA (where the modules are vetted for setting accuracy) because of the preponderance of notable names and backstory... but maybe D&D intellectual property is as much about reading and enjoying content as playing the game.
The thing about FR is that while most would never play it, it was always enjoying to read. Volo's Guides were suffocating as canonical game material, but they were great for reading. I always return to my 2e Forgotten Realms Adventures hardcover when designing a new city, and 3e FRCS was a textbook in campaign setting design (every paragraph should have an adventure hook).
Myth Drannor is representative of everything that is wonderful and awful about the Forgotten Realms. It is the most wondrous, beautiful and enchanting deathtrap ever made* with a rich story filled with unexpected surprises around every corner. It was however a horrible module with arbitrary death, overpowered magical items, and an overwhelming amount of trivia. But in terms of enjoyable D&D game material to read and immerse yourself in, it is hard to beat it.
*And they made it into a living elven city again in the closing days of 3e. Blah! What a waste of an excellent ruin.
I didn't buy the 4e FRCG or the FRPG, but I did just buy the Scepter Tower of Spellguard. I did this because it matches up very well with the Ruins of Fastormel on the shores of Lake Nen rather than because I care about the ancient wizards of Netheril. The modular nature of 4e's core flavour makes my reliance on FR for high fantasy locations, history and storylines to poach much reduced. I'd prefer if my D&D flavour text doesn't come with FR baggage. Heck, I've come to the realization that I like Greyhawk flavour after 4e wrenched the classic Greyhawk villains and dungeons from their moorings in the campaign setting... though I am still bored stiff by the setting I read about in the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer.
So if they were going to switch tacks and stop using FR as its vehicle for delivering adventures, locales, and other flavour text, and there were only planning to release 3 RPG books outside the core 3, then maybe they should have just left the setting as it was. Sure, it might be better as a novel setting, or you wouldn't want to play it unless you were in the RPGA (where the modules are vetted for setting accuracy) because of the preponderance of notable names and backstory... but maybe D&D intellectual property is as much about reading and enjoying content as playing the game.
The thing about FR is that while most would never play it, it was always enjoying to read. Volo's Guides were suffocating as canonical game material, but they were great for reading. I always return to my 2e Forgotten Realms Adventures hardcover when designing a new city, and 3e FRCS was a textbook in campaign setting design (every paragraph should have an adventure hook).
Myth Drannor is representative of everything that is wonderful and awful about the Forgotten Realms. It is the most wondrous, beautiful and enchanting deathtrap ever made* with a rich story filled with unexpected surprises around every corner. It was however a horrible module with arbitrary death, overpowered magical items, and an overwhelming amount of trivia. But in terms of enjoyable D&D game material to read and immerse yourself in, it is hard to beat it.
*And they made it into a living elven city again in the closing days of 3e. Blah! What a waste of an excellent ruin.
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jdrakeh
Front Range Warlock
Wow! I think that's the first time I've ever seen somebody talk about the Myth Drannor boxed set being anything other than a horrible product. Goes to show, I guess, that one man's floor is another man's ceiling.
Why would any actor in LA ever spend time training to become a better actor? Why show up at an audition? I mean, who cares that Joe Johnson is some new actor, and could play Hamlet well when Brad Pitt is around, and way more experienced and well-known?
The whole argument about there being too many NPCs in the Forgotten Realms is just as silly. I've seen tonnes of people make it, and use it as a reason why they don't like the setting. But really....
Reading through the FRCS, there is a population of 69,702,416 people in Faerun, to say nothing of the populations of Kara-Tur, Maztica, or Al-Qadim. Out of all the materials for the setting, I bet there are fewer than 500 named NPCs. Having counted through the FRCS, I can say there are about 121 (I counted every one I could find in the geography chapter). And those are many of the major/famous ones.
Assuming there are 379 more in the other books, that leaves 500....which is still only 0.0007% of the population. These numbers are so unimaginably big that most people can't even really conceive of them. Consequently, 500 people are a tiny, tiny proportion of those numbers.
I really think that people overstate the prevalence of these NPCs. Faerun is a huge continent. There are tens of millions of people on it. What are the odds that your PCs are ever going to run into these NPCs? They're probably not that high.
I think back to my life, and I've probably met 2 famous people...Ronald Reagan and Bryan Mulroney. Both were by chance, and in both instances, they had better things to do than worry about what I was doing for my job. Why would matters be any different for the PCs?
These famous NPCs would be far too busy with the affairs they already have as responsibilities......taking care of their own business, handling the hundreds of requests for help that they get from locals (you want your cat out of the tree? It's kind of beneath me as I was killing great wyrm red dragons on the weekend, but you know my wife's brother's cousin's best friend, and well, I'm an all around nice guy, so I guess I will), giving autographs, and all that.
I just don't see that argument holding much weight. If the players are instructing the DM that they want to meet a certain NPC because the book says he lives in X town or building, or if the DM keeps having X NPC save the day, then the game has got more significant problems, and they're not the result of the campaign setting.
Banshee
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