The (Non-)Playtest Experience, or How the Hit Die Mechanic was a Non-Starter

[Ahnehnois]

If people are so bothered because recovering all your HP overnight is "unrealistic" why aren't they bothered by the fact that a man with one HP fights just as well as a man with a million HP?

I'm willing to bed dollars to dimes the whole "unrealistic" thing is just people trying to justify the fact that they have always played a certain way and they simply cannot accept change.

I think you'll find many people who dislike that, and, on the other end, a crowd that screams "death spiral" (very loudly) any time someone suggests doing anything about it. The issue certainly is not about people being afraid of change. Anyone pushing even an incremental step towards believability is in fact advocating for change.

I think the two things this thread shows is:
- The hit point/healing/damage issue is very important to many posters on ENWorld; to the point of defining one group of players versus the other.
- It is an issue that needs to be addressed sooner rather than later if we're all going to fit under the one tent. WotC get those dials happening please.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

No kidding. HP have for a long time been a sort of truce between people with different mentalities. The underlying accord seems to have dissolved with the advent of 4e's take on health and healing.

Personally, I see the whole one-night healing business as a backwards step, and I see no reason to take it.

 

[Pickles JG]

D&D has a long tradition of non-simulationist mechanics, such as hit points, saving throws, and demihuman level limits, and non-simulationist game-world constructions such as the mega-dungeon, being given transparently feeble simulationist justifications to assuage more simulationist inclined players.

And you can't go against tradition!

You missed out Levels & Classes that seem to be so embedded in the world of D&D & RPGs that people don't even recognise them as gaminst abstractions.

 

[Herschel]

Yeah, when people start claiming that healing all of your hit points in one night is crazy unrealistic, but healing all of your hit points in three days is acceptable, I have to wonder what's really going on.

I do think they may have a legitimate complaint. In a "heal in 3-ish days" game, you're going to just bring along magic. And "a wizard did it" is a great way to justify things that otherwise might gum up your internal consistency (in this case, "a cleric did it).

I just think that the legitimate complaint they have isn't necessarily the one they think they have, and that the draw back of the earlier systems where it was just assumed that everyone had magic all the time are actual draw backs that at least deserved to be weighed against the benefits, instead of swept under the rug with cries of "realism."

You make a good point. Alas, I am unable to XP you again just yet.

 

[Pickles JG]

I just think that the legitimate complaint they have isn't necessarily the one they think they have, and that the draw back of the earlier systems where it was just assumed that everyone had magic all the time are actual draw backs that at least deserved to be weighed against the benefits, instead of swept under the rug with cries of "realism."

Nicely put. I have always had an issue with the necessary cleric/magical healing to make the game work.


Meanwhile I see my character with one HP being fully functional & effective so really how badly hurt can he be? If it takes me several days to recover from not being debilitated at all it totally breaks my suspension of disbelief.

Surges & non magical healing greatly increased the simulationism of D&D for me, provided I accepted it simulated action movies & heroic fiction.

I would love for HP not to represent physical damage at all & have some wound system that was, mildly not death spirally, debilitating. These wounds would take time rest or magic to heal & our HP would come back fast.
For example I would give out a wound to anyone reduced to 0 hp & anyone who was "bloodied" would need a CON save or get one. Or maybe crits would wound. Needs testing.
"Wounded" would give you -1 to all checks & attacks. Wounds would not stack but the number of days to heal one wound would be equal to the number you had.

 

[GX.Sigma]

But as soon as I explain the hit die / healing mechanics, the GURPS GM (who was going to be a PC for the playtest), hands back the character sheet, and says, "I won't play a game where your hit points are LITERALLY guaranteed to be returned to you every night. Period. If this is how the game works, it's a waste of time to even play it. Let's do something else."

That's a shame, because if you had actually played the playtest, you would have discovered that the entire party gets free magical healing every night anyway (due to the Priest background trait), so you can literally just ignore that rule and it'll work the same.

 

[Lord Mhoram]

Here is something to consider on what HP Mean (taken from the Legends and Lore article, and the first edition AD&D DMG


L&L-
A creature with more than half its maximum hit points has nothing more than the superficial signs of injury. There might be a few tears in its armor or clothes, or it could have a dent in its shield, and it has not yet suffered any serious physical harm beyond a scrape, light cut, or bruise. Anyone looking at the creature likely doesn't notice that it has been involved in a fight.
DMG-
Consider a 10th level fighter (some math) 95 hip points! EAch hit scored upon the character does only a small amount of physical harm - the sword thrust that would have run a 1t level fighter through the heart [B}merely grazes the character due to the fighters exceptional skill luck and 6th sense.


L&L
A creature with less than half its maximum hit points has suffered a few noticeable cuts or bruises. A casual inspection or quick look reveals that the creature has taken a few hits, so it is noticeably injured.
DMG-
However having sustained 40 or 50 hit points of damage* our lordly fighter will be covered with a number nicks, scratches cuts and bruises .

* note that the fighter has 95 points. 47 would be half. Right in between 40 and 50.




It looks like the D&D next hit point description was taken from the D&D DMG, in some places almost verbatim the same. They just defined exactly the point where "more serious damage" is designated.

So HP and what they represent in the game hasn't changed.

Healing everything overnight is another matter - one I won't go into, because I really have no horse in this race - I would be fine as is, and I would be fine if it is lessened.

 

[rounser]

And the BECMI Rules Cyclopedia page 7 defines them as "Your character's hit point score represents his ability to survive injury."

The point is perhaps not these definitions, but how the game has treated hp prior to 4E. Slow natural hit point regain and spell names like "cure serious wounds" and "potion of healing" cemented in the minds of countless players something that makes regaining all hp overnight feel like WOTC has turned D&D into a game of cartoon characters. Although it's possible to argue that hp have an element of TOON to them, not to this degree prior to 4E (and now, seemingly, 5E).

Why do they keep stumbling over this part of the game with shout-heals, healing surges, and now auto-overnight healing? Instead of rendering non-magical healing a sore point of their game, and un-D&Dish when they're ostensibly trying to appeal to D&D players, why not just inject more magical healing into the game, like Kenzer did with Hackmaster 4E? It's not rocket surgery. Everyone else trying to make a D&D clone seems to get this detail right, without introducing suspension of disbelief howlers like healing surges.

 

[Mithreinmaethor]

And the BECMI Rules Cyclopedia page 7 defines them as "Your character's hit point score represents his ability to survive injury."

The point is perhaps not these definitions, but how the game has treated hp prior to 4E. Slow natural hit point regain and spell names like "cure serious wounds" and "potion of healing" cemented in the minds of countless players something that makes regaining all hp overnight feel like WOTC has turned D&D into a game of cartoon characters. Although it's possible to argue that hp have an element of TOON to them, not to this degree prior to 4E (and now, seemingly, 5E).

Why do they keep stumbling over this part of the game with shout-heals, healing surges, and now auto-overnight healing? Instead of rendering non-magical healing a sore point of their game, and un-D&Dish when they're ostensibly trying to appeal to D&D players, why not just inject more magical healing into the game, like Kenzer did with Hackmaster 4E? It's not rocket surgery. Everyone else trying to make a D&D clone seems to get this detail right, without introducing suspension of disbelief howlers like healing surges.

Yeah because quivers of CLW wands and gallon jugs of healing potions is so much more believable.

And I guarantee if the DM does not allow the above the players would complain and walk away as a non-starter like the player in the OP's post.

 

[Dragoslav]

Why do they keep stumbling over this part of the game with shout-heals, healing surges, and now auto-overnight healing? Instead of rendering non-magical healing a sore point of their game, and un-D&Dish when they're ostensibly trying to appeal to D&D players, why not just inject more magical healing into the game, like Kenzer did with Hackmaster 4E? It's not rocket surgery. Everyone else trying to make a D&D clone seems to get this detail right, without introducing suspension of disbelief howlers like healing surges.

If anything, with "shout-heals," healing surges, and so on, they finally brought all the HP mechanics in line with how they have narratively been explaining HP, while it's actually cleric spells named "cure serious wounds" and "potions of healing" that haven't been consistent with how HP were defined.

What you should be asking isn't "How does a warlord shout my wounds closed?" but rather "How does a cleric cure my "serious wounds" when I don't actually have any?" (a fighter with 1/99 HP and a fighter with 99/99 HP fight exactly the same, so clearly the one with 1 HP hasn't actually incurred any "serious wounds").

So should we get rid of healing potions and "cure ___ wounds" spells? No. You just have to use your imagination, which is the whole point of a game like D&D. Let's say you have 5/15 HP. How do the following things heal you? You drink a healing potion --> It relieves the pain of your minor cuts and bruises, contains an invigorating magical substance that keeps you fresh and alert, and tastes like strawberry. A cleric casts a healing spell on you --> All of your minor cuts and bruises magically disappear, and your straining muscles suddenly feel fresh and ready to move. A warlord shouts something quick, but inspirational --> Your ally's presence is so imposing, and his words so confident, that it reinvigorates your flagging morale and encourages you to push past your minor injuries. (I don't see why people have such trouble accepting that, in a fantasy world with wizards who control the elements and paladins who are so righteous that they gain minor divine magic,there won't be commanders who are so inspirational that they can encourage people to continue fighting beyond their pain threshold. It's a fantasy trope as much as anything else) You have to see HP as a combination of physical pain, morale, luck, skill, etc., but not serious injuries until you're knocked down.

Furthermore, the design goal for the DDN core rules are simplicity, simplicity, simplicity. Having convoluted systems for wounds are definitely right out, and even rules that require days of natural healing are needlessly complex because they violate the idea of what HP is.

Overnight healing of someone who has at least 1 HP is a great, intuitive, and simple system, but here's the thing. There's no reason why there can't be a "gritty realism" module that adds complexity to healing and wounds, requires longer periods of natural healing, etc. That would be a fantastic system that let many people play the game they want to play. It just shouldn't be the core, ground-level ruleset for HP and healing.

 

[rounser]

Yeah because quivers of CLW wands and gallon jugs of healing potions is so much more believable.

That's a 3E kludge, and a response to underpowered magical healing. You could, for instance, just increase the amount a healing spell heals to X per caster level. Or beef up potions for that matter, so they heal a percentage of total hp or something.

Either of those options are less silly than the 4E solution (and now 5E).