The (Non-)Playtest Experience, or How the Hit Die Mechanic was a Non-Starter

[Bedrockgames]

It's not a strawman, it's you being shown you are wrong, have been wrong and always will be wrong on the subject of Hit Points being defined the way you're trying to define them. You CAN play them in other ways (it's a HOUSE RULE) but you grossly misrepresent what they've ALWAYS meant by definition of Anderson, Gygax, Cook, Cook, Tweet, Williams, Heinsoo, Bonner, Collins, Wyatt, Mearls, etc.

The overnight resource replenishment is just as realistic as not, whether or not someone actually likes it because Hit Points again are not that closely tied to actual wounds/physical damage.

Look at it this way, at the end of each and every day in real life we are worn down, even martial artists, soldiers, etc. Look at soldiers especially. They may have cuts, bruises or whatever but in the end what they need, just like every other human being, is sleep.

Sleep re-charges the body, speeds healing and when they awaken in the morning they are re-charged to take on another day. The bruises hurt a bit less, the scrapes itch a bit from healing, etc. They're up and going again. They're not perfect, but Hit Points aren't that granular either. There's no "Severely Sprained Ankle" or "Dislocated Shoulder" condition/mechanic, and a twisted ankle or popping a shoulder back in to place are things adventurers have to deal with and still perform just as well with or they die.

Except there is always a physical component to hp. You take damage from being hit by ings in combat and stuff that is oysically deadly does more damage (that fireball is draining your luck, its burning your flesh). Most people play the game with hp largely being about physical damage. You can not sleep off physical damage in 8 hours. up until 4e this was understod in how healing worked. Clearly the designers made natural healing slower to balance out the tesnsion between the physical and non physcal aspects of hp. 8 hour healing goes entirely in the direction if non physical.

No amount of arguing over definitions is going to change the fact that this really bothers people. If they insist on one day healing and HD as a core rule they are going to lose peope that expect a touch more realism from the game.

 

[am181d]

Though it's rather hard to say how long it takes to recover one's skill, luck, sixth sense, or magical protection. Hang on a moment. Are these attributes that one has a set amount of, and then loses?

"Oooh, that orc hitting me over the head has made me a lot less lucky! I'll need a good long rest to get it back. My sixth sense is shot all to hell too. Ninjas are sneaking up on me now."

If luck isn't expendable, why are all the bad guys in movies always saying, "It appears that your luck has finally run out!"???

 

[am181d]

It seems to me like the fault with the original poster's situation was really with expectations. The whole issue could have been avoided if there'd been an upfront disclaimer (or even an after the fact disclaimer) where someone said, "This is a playtest. There will be parts you do not like. This is not a finished game. Our job is to identify the parts we don't like and to provide WotC with feedback along those lines."

Instead, it sounds like it was pitched as "Let's try out 5th Edition."

That said, it's probably for the best that they DIDN'T play, because they were (I strongly suspect) in violation of WotC's playtesting rules. I'd bet dollars-to-donuts that only one person in the group signed the NDA and downloaded the game materials.

 

[B.T.]

But as soon as I explain the hit die / healing mechanics, the GURPS GM (who was going to be a PC for the playtest), hands back the character sheet, and says, "I won't play a game where your hit points are LITERALLY guaranteed to be returned to you every night. Period. If this is how the game works, it's a waste of time to even play it. Let's do something else."

Your player sounds like a jerk. No offense intended. Refusing to play a game because there's one rule he dislikes seems a tad ridiculous. It's not even like healing surges in 4e, where the mechanic was inextricably bound within the system's rules. You could take HD out of the 5e playtest and just say everyone regains 1 hit point per night.

 

[Herschel]

Except there is always a physical component to hp. You take damage from being hit by ings in combat and stuff that is oysically deadly does more damage (that fireball is draining your luck, its burning your flesh).

There is a physical component, but it's cumulative minor physical aches & pains, not debilitating injuries. Sleep replenishes the body as much as anything for these things.

As for the Fireball, that's never been real physical damage either. A Fireball is a flash bomb that singes you around the edges but characters duck & cover, mitigating various amounts of the actual damage. They aren't standing naked staring wide-eyed as it hits them and it isn't a sustained fire. The burns aren't first-degree unless you aren't experienced enough to recognize and duck. A "real" Fireball the way you are trying to describe it would kill any character, any level, any time.

And that would be a game breaker.

Most people play the game with hp largely being about physical damage.

If these threads are any example, then no, most don't. You're in the definite minority.

You can not sleep off physical damage in 8 hours. up until 4e this was understod in how healing worked. Clearly the designers made natural healing slower to balance out the tension between the physical and non physcal aspects of hp. 8 hour healing goes entirely in the direction if non physical.

Again, it was always mostly non-physical. The designers didn't "clearly" do anything of the sort if you actually read what they wrote. The "balance" you speak of was an arbitrary method/system to create tension but is in no way, shape or form any more "realistic" than the 4E system. There's never been the Torn Achilles, Compound Fracture, Severe Internal Hemorrhage condition/status in the game.


No amount of arguing over definitions is going to change the fact that this really bothers people. If they insist on one day healing and HD as a core rule they are going to lose peope that expect a touch more realism from the game.[/QUOTE]

 

[Bedrockgames]

It seems to me like the fault with the original poster's situation was really with expectations. The whole issue could have been avoided if there'd been an upfront disclaimer (or even an after the fact disclaimer) where someone said, "This is a playtest. There will be parts you do not like. This is not a finished game. Our job is to identify the parts we don't like and to provide WotC with feedback along those lines."

Instead, it sounds like it was pitched as "Let's try out 5th Edition."

That said, it's probably for the best that they DIDN'T play, because they were (I strongly suspect) in violation of WotC's playtesting rules. I'd bet dollars-to-donuts that only one person in the group signed the NDA and downloaded the game materials.

Even if they didn't play, it is useful feedback for him to tell wotc HD and healing resulted in no one wanting to play. If it is only this guy's group, they can ignore it, but if they get hundreds or thousands of people saying their group wouldn't even play because there is one day healing in the game, then that suggestd they might want to pull the stuff out of the core. This is going to be a numbers game, and what turns peopleon or off before play even starts is very important data (people need to decide to buy the game beforethey play it, and these kinds of things influence the decision to buy or not buy).

 

[Mallus]

"This is a playtest. There will be parts you do not like. This is not a finished game. Our job is to identify the parts we don't like and to provide WotC with feedback along those lines."

"This is coffee. It is made using boiling water. Do not pour into your lap."

 

[Bedrockgames]

There is a physical component, but it's cumulative minor physical aches & pains, not debilitating injuries. Sleep replenishes the body as much as anything for these things.

As for the Fireball, that's never been real physical damage either. A Fireball is a flash bomb that singes you around the edges but characters duck & cover, mitigating various amounts of the actual damage. They aren't standing naked staring wide-eyed as it hits them and it isn't a sustained fire. The burns aren't first-degree unless you aren't experienced enough to recognize and duck. A "real" Fireball the way you are trying to describe it would kill any character, any level, any time.

And that would be a game breaker.

Needless to say, i disagree.

If these threads are any example, then no, most don't. You're in the definite minority.

I think you are misjudging here. Been involved in these threads for a while now andit is a pretty even mix. Unrealistic healing continued to be a major complaint in 4e (through its entire run) because lots of gamers take my position.

Again, it was always mostly non-physical. The designers didn't "clearly" do anything of the sort if you actually read what they wrote. The "balance" you speak of was an arbitrary method/system to create tension but is in no way, shape or form any more "realistic" than the 4E system. There's never been the Torn Achilles, Compound Fracture, Severe Internal Hemorrhage condition/status in the game.

You are just creating a false choice here. Hp have always been a mix of physical and non physical. Healing times have aways (until recently) paidlip service to the physical side of hp (this is why magichealsyou instantly, but it takes days or weeks to heal naturally. Just because it doesn't get into wound simulation, that doesn't mean the game completeky handwaved physical damage as you are doing now. Your point of view is one among many among D&Dplayers. By forcing one day heals, they completely dismiss other approaches to damage (and i think we are at least half of the player base).

 

[Herschel]

It's not a "false choice" , that "lip service" has NEVER made any logical sense. It was just added to attempt a tension mechanic.

As for a Fireball, you've obvioulsy never seen what explosive fire does to a human body in real life, which I'm glad you haven't. It's devastating, gut-wrenching and the effects aren't just burns but nerve damage, permanent disfigurement, sometimes blindness and a whole host of other issues I won't go into in case someone is eating while reading.

 

[Bedrockgames]

It's not a "false choice" , that "lip service" has NEVER made any logical sense. It was just added to attempt a tension mechanic.

As for a Fireball, you've obvioulsy never seen what explosive fire does to a human body in real life, which I'm glad you haven't. It's devastating, gut-wrenching and the effects aren't just burns but nerve damage, permanent disfigurement, sometimes blindness and a whole host of other issues I won't go into in case someone is eating while reading.

HP are a simple abstraction. They will not make sense under intense scrutiny. But the lip service made a lot more sense than one day heals IMO. And the lip service was clearly present in the first three editions of the game.

Again, regarding fireball, i am not looking for 100% gritty realism (i have said this seversl times). I know what fire does in real life. But just because I dont want nerve damage, monthlong wounds ad disfigurement from fire, it doesn't mean I want to completely handwave its effects. Yes HP as done before with fireball were not a simulation of reality, but they also we not a complete dismissal of reality either. You took a blast of fire to the face and it couldtake days or weeks to recover that isn't real life, but it also isn't a cartoon. Imo it was a good middle ground for a simple approach to damage that allows the game to move forward but doesn't completely ignore the realities of combat.