The (Non-)Playtest Experience, or How the Hit Die Mechanic was a Non-Starter

[Blood & Bones]

That's not true. Most people equate hit points with wounding and/or a loss of morale, heroic luck or fatigue. Just because it's somewhat abstract and contentious does not give WOTC carte blanche to decide that the wounding now only kicks in on an unconsciousness blow. This is the same kind of handwavey argument based on reinventing D&D reality used to defend healing surges in 4E. Didn't wash then, doesn't wash now. Many will note that it doesn't match their understanding of what D&D is, and again declare another instance of "not D&D".

Uh-huh. Do you have to sharpen your razors to split hairs so fine, or do you order them special? Seriously, the healing and hit points as depicted in the playtest is still up for discussion. It will most likely be different in the next playtest packet. So take a deep breath; it's just a game.

You would think we were discussing politics, religion, or other matters of life and death; it's just not that important.

 

[rounser]

Don't start this argument again. Go dig up your old 1st Edition AD&D Player's Handbook, look up the section where the explain what HP are, and read it. Because you can argue whatever you want for what HP actually mean, but it's been a nebulous concept since the very start of the game.

If you want a wound system, there probably will be one. There's more than enough demand, so I'd highly expect a rules module for that either in the core rulebook or in whatever they do for an advanced combat tactics book.

Then WOTC need to read that section - they're the ones getting it wrong. They think they're designing a new game that they get to call D&D, whereas I would have thought the 4E episode put paid to that notion, that only part of the existing audience experiences voluntary amnesia regarding existing D&D concepts and just buys their reinvention. Lesson not learnt.

 

[Obryn]

I'm more wondering at this point if the Hit Dice / healing / rest mechanics have been this controversial or divisive in other groups.

My group just gets together to hang out, eat junk food, and play a fun game around my dining room table. Trying to dissect the fundamental workings of the game-universe doesn't enter into it.

-O

 

[grimslade]

Hmm. Hyperbole. Check. Edition/Game warring. Check. High emotions. Check.
I'm bored with this can we please get a new script for this thread.
Innerdude's GURPS GM sounds a little reactionary and a bit silly, but not knowing him or how the groups dynamic is, so what. We have no playtest, just a comment on one mechanic or two mechanics being conflated. Why all the hubbub, Bubs?

The Hit Die mechanic was something I did not think I was going to like when I read it. In play it was great. It gave the party a little breathing room in between encounters when they could rest and bind wounds. Very different from in-combat healing and really didn't affect our verisimilitude at all. If anything, it strengthened it.

The long rest equals full recovery is a different animal. Full HP after 8 hours of rest is too much. The ogre battle in both of the playtests I DM'd was a draining hard fought battle that sent some PCs to the brink of death, including several into negatives and bleeding out. A nice long nap and the party is like new to delve deeper? It's jarring. It cheapened the prior fights a bit.

I am not a big 'hp is physical punishment' guy. I like hp being a combo of will, luck and training to take a blow. Hit points are spent before you get the sword in the gut. You drop to zero, and you got whacked. And I still didn't like long rest. You should need more than 8 hours to be at peak condition again.

I understand most groups hand wave down time for recovery unless they are running a survival adventure, so what is the difference? Not much, it comes down to feel and personal preference. You get rocked and the world should move on some before you hit it again.

Innerdude, its a shame you didn't get to run the playtest. Especially for a one-shot night. The playtest was fun. My group and I are eagerly awaiting some more rules to bash around.

 

[Abstruse]

Then WOTC need to read that section - they're the ones getting it wrong. They think they're designing a new game that the get to call D&D, whereas I would have thought the 4E episode put paid to that notion. Lesson not learnt.

Nebulous (adj): Unclear, vague, or ill-defined. The idea of what hit points represent in Dungeons & Dragons has always been nebulous at best.

Arguing about HP is like arguing about ascending AC vs. descending AC in 2nd to 3rd, or to-hit table to THAC0 in 1st to 2nd, or elves/dwarves/halflings being races rather than classes from OD&D to AD&D. Only even more pointless because the definition's never changed because it's never once been firmly defined in the entire history of the game.

Want to be pedantic about something, please pick another topic. This dead horse has been beaten to an unrecognizable pulp already. Arguing about it means absolutely nothing because it adds nothing to the conversation, it's just going back and forth and back and forth. "I'm right and you're wrong." "No I'm right and you're wrong!" "Nuh uh!" "Uh huh!" Hell, even complaining about these sorts of arguments is beating a dead horse.

So I've explained why it doesn't matter what HP mean. I've explained earlier how it doesn't really matter if it's 1HP a day, 1HP/level a day, or full HP because it's all fluff that just amounts to a difference sentence ("We camp for the night to heal up" vs. "We go back to town for a week or two to heal up.). I've pointed out that the developers have specifically stated they decided to err on the side of more HP and faster healing with the playtest and can roll things back if it's not balanced rather than starting with less HP and slower healing and scaling up. I've also pointed out that the developers have said there will be option rules for various healing, HP, and most likely wound systems later in development. I'm now officially done with this topic.

 

[Dragoslav]

That's not true. Most people equate hit points with wounding and/or a loss of morale, heroic luck or fatigue. Just because it's somewhat abstract and contentious does not give WOTC carte blanche to decide that the wounding now only kicks in on an unconsciousness blow.

Just to clear up any ambiguity from my original post that you quoted, it's not that characters ONLY get physically wounded when going to 0 HP or lower -- it's something more along the lines of "being below 1/2 HP means you have accrued various cuts and bruises and maybe suffered one direct hit, and going to 0 HP means you've taken one (or a second) direct hit that knocks you out of the fight." This isn't set in stone, of course, it's just their working design.

 

[Herschel]

Yes, but if I were to redesign the nature of hit points, I wouldn't call it D&D. I'd call it Rounser's Nextastic Fantasy Heartbreaker, so D&D fans wouldn't look at it and have to relearn fundamental conceits they thought they already knew. D&D already has a common understanding of it's conceits such as hp, healing etc. They may think they get to mess with that, but may be in for another unwelcome surprise from the D&D existing audience.

Except Hit Points have NEVER been simple wounds. Never. EGG and co. state that right up front early and often. They're not changing the "nature" of anything.

 

[Blackwarder]

I ran the playtest to two groups, one of them used the full recovery method, the other rolled their HD equevelent during a long rest and also recovered their HD, I like the roll your HD equevelent method by far because I too find full healing over night to be too immersion breaking.

That being said I think the OP friend is a jerk, that's not the reaction I would have expected from an experience DM that sounds like somthing that I would expect from a guy who decided he didn't want to play with another DM and just used the first excuse that came to mind and through a tantrum fit...

Bottom line, he acted like an idiot.

Warder

 

[MacMathan]

To the OP and Rounser I hope you can both find groups that will actually play-test the rules.

Go ahead and pull something if it is offensive but please play the other 99% and give feedback as to what you have experienced.

At this point I hope anyone bothering to post online about issues is also taking the time to playtest and give feedback otherwise....

 

[rounser]

Except Hit Points have NEVER been simple wounds. Never. EGG and co. state that right up front early and often. They're not changing the "nature" of anything.

And nowhere did I say they were simple wounds. You're tilting at a strawman of your own devising. Regardless, regaining all HP overnight without magical intervention does not pass the "is it D&D" sniff test, no matter how WOTC thinks they can redefine the game, IMO.