The Official Adaptive Style Debate Thread (Continued from elsewhere)

[MongooseFamiliar]

(This is continuing a debate that has begun elsewhere. Feel free to weigh in. I'm copying and pasting a bunch of stuff from the other thread so you have some context.)

In several places I have seen people talking about taking Adaptive Style and using it to recover all their expended maneuvers using a full-round action. A lot of people seem to be reading the text they wish was there rather than what is actually printed on the page for that particular feat. If you are going by the actual text of the feat, it doesn't allow Swordsages to recover maneuvers during combat, just change the ones he has readied. Crusaders are the only ones who can recover maneuvers using Adaptive Style.

I made a comment similar to the one above. Someone replied:

"So you can change the maneuvers you have readied, right? This we both agree on? Ok, go to the section in Bo9S that describes Readying maneuvers and see what it says there. I don't have the book in front of me, but I will paraphrase... Whenever you Ready maneuvers, they become immediately available to you. Normally Readying maneuvers takes 5 minutes to do. The only thing Adaptive Style does is change the time requirement of Readying maneuvers from 5 minutes to a full-round action. Pretty sweet, huh?"

I answered:
Readying Maneuvers on p. 38 - "Maneuvers require preparation in the form of exercise, prayer, meditation, or simple mental rehearsal...each class requires 5 minutes of preparation time...you can exchange your previously chosen set of readied maneuvers for a new set of readied maneuvers." Nothing covered here about recovering, just preparing.

Recovering Maneuvers on p. 40 - Interestingly enough, it doesn't mention Adaptive Style here. "You begin each encounter with all your readied maneuvers unexpended. When you initiate a maneuver, it is expended - you cannot use it again UNTIL YOU RECOVER IT. You can recover expended maneuvers in two ways: through special actions (the ones listed are the same as those in each class listing) or the end of battle."

Adaptive Style on p. 28 - "You can change your readied maneuvers at any time by taking a full-round action. Normal: You can change maneuvers only by spending 5 minutes to do so." The benefit seems to be that if you get into an unexpected situation you can tailor your maneuvers to the situation in one round rather than having to spend five minutes. Except for the crusader, nothing is mentioned regarding RECOVERING maneuvers.

Sorry, but I don't think Adaptive Style can just remove the necessary limiter on the Swordsage's power. They know more maneuvers and can have more readied than either of the other classes. The trade-off is that they can't get them back as quickly.

Reading "change readied maneuvers" as "I get to use everything again" is pretty selective interpretation and totally ignoring A) the text of the Adaptive Style feat and B) the Recovering Maneuvers text on p. 40. It is, to be blunt, wishful thinking.

The response:

Take another look at page 38, first paragraph under READYING MANEUVERS, last sentence:

Quote:
Only your readied maneuvers are available for immediate use.


And as you already quoted Adaptive Style:

Quote:
You can change your readied maneuvers at any time by taking a full-round action.


So if you take a full round action to change your readied maneuvers, and your readied maneuvers are avaiable for immediate use... Well, I am not quite sure how else you can read/understand that!?

Selective interpretation? I think not. Perhaps you have selective quoting of the rules?

Oh, and here is something else I am sure you will want to discount:

Quote:
One of the questions from "Ask Wizards," on 08/28/2006.

Q: If you take the Adaptive Style feat (Tome of Battle, pg. 28), can you pick new maneuvers and/or ready all maneuvers by spending a full-round action in the middle of combat?

A: Yes, you can use Adaptive Style to pick new maneuvers in the middle of combat. Since you are picking new maneuvers, they would all be readied. This is a clear advantage for a class such as the swordsage, who normally has to spend a full round action to recover a single maneuver, and would be a great feat to pick up.

Responses:
"And if you have no ready manuvers to switch out, or if you've used some of your maneuvers, is it your contention that using Adaptive Style will automatically refresh the spent maneuvers?

In other words, if a Swordsage has used all the maneuvers available to him in a long combat, do you believe it is the correct interpretation of the rules that he can use Adaptive Style to recover all his previously spent manuvers with a single full-round action?

Because that's the issue we're talking about here. We're not caring that the switched maneuvers are immediately ready, because that's not the issue.

There are times when "Ask Wizards" comes up with the wrong answer..."

""Only your readied maneuvers are available for immediate use" is a constraint on availability and nothing more. Readied maneuvers are NOT necessarily available for immediate use, because for instance their slots might have been expended. Readying maneuvers and recovering them seem to be separate activities.

That being said, the combination of rules CAN be interpreted to assume that the act of choosing maneuvers for readying also causes a recovery cycle since that is usually what happens when new maneuvers are readied. However, this is not a certainty, and DM's are within their rights to rule differently (or ban the feat, if it comes to that)."


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If you wish to read the discussion in its entirety, it is here: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=3265018&posted=1#post3265018

Sorry for the length, but I figured that as long as there was a contention we might as well give it a separate thread and get out of the poor guy's thread we were derailing.

Have at it, folks.

 

[RigaMortus2]

And if you have no ready manuvers to switch out, or if you've used some of your maneuvers, is it your contention that using Adaptive Style will automatically refresh the spent maneuvers?

First off, you will ALWAYS have Readied maneuvers to switch out. Page 38, last paragraph under READYING MANEUVERS, and last sentence. Unlike a wizard preparing her spells, you cannot choose to to leave a readied maneuver slot unfilled. So you always have a Readied maneuver available. Even if you expend it, it is still considered a Readied maneuver (it took me awhile to learn all the new "terms" and "conditions" for maneuvers as well, so I can't fault you on this one).

Maneuver's known: Any maneuver that a martial adept has picked up, whether it is readied, expended, or withheld (in the case of a Crusader)

Maneuver's readied: Chosen from your maneuvers know, this is any manuever you have readied for the day. If you happened to have expended your readied maneuver, it is still considered readied, just expended and not available to you at that time.

I won't bother going over the other terms such as maneuvers expended or withheld.
In other words, if a Swordsage has used all the maneuvers available to him in a long combat, do you believe it is the correct interpretation of the rules that he can use Adaptive Style to recover all his previously spent manuvers with a single full-round action?

Because that's the issue we're talking about here. We're not caring that the switched maneuvers are immediately ready, because that's not the issue.

Strictly speaking, when you ready your maneuvers, they are not really "refreshed" or "recovered". However, they are available for immediate use. Different terminology, same result.

There are times when "Ask Wizards" comes up with the wrong answer...

And there are times when it does not.

 

[RigaMortus2]

"Only your readied maneuvers are available for immediate use" is a constraint on availability and nothing more.

Perhaps I am not following your logic, but if you maneuvers are available to you, then you can use them? Especially when they are avaible for immediate use.

Readied maneuvers are NOT necessarily available for immediate use,

According to the rule I quoted they are

...because for instance their slots might have been expended.

There is no such thing as their slots being expended. Can you quote me a rule or tell me what page this is on? The only "slots" you have are slots for Readied maneuvers (which you must fill, unlike a Wizard with spell slots, where they can leave some empty). Even if you expend a maneuver, it is still considered readied (please show me where it states it is not), just unavailable for use. Tthis is detailed on page 40, where it states When you initiate a maneuver, it is expended--you can not use it again until you recover it. Then it describes the recovery methods. Since this isn't in dispute, you also have to look at what happens when you Ready maneuvers. One of those things is that you get to pick which maneuvers will be available to you, and as a result of that, they are available for immediate use.

Readying maneuvers and recovering them seem to be separate activities.

No dispute there. They just happen to have the same result.

That being said, the combination of rules CAN be interpreted to assume that the act of choosing maneuvers for readying also causes a recovery cycle since that is usually what happens when new maneuvers are readied.

Again, this is not accurate. It does not cause a recovery cycle at all. That is two seperate things. There are rules about recovering maneuvers, and they are rules for when you ready maneuvers. You have to follow them seperately.

 

[MongooseFamiliar]

Okay, so we are on the same page, consider this scenario:

A 1st-level Swordsage gets into battle. He has readied maneuvers A, B, C, and D. He uses A and B and realizes that A and B would be much better to use than C and D in this situation. He has Adaptive Style and spends a round changing C and D to A and B. He still only has two unexpended maneuvers he can use until the end of battle unless he takes a recovery round.

Now, the contention has arisen because you and others seem to feel that the Adaptive Style feat refreshes the expended maneuvers as well as allowing the readied maneuvers to be changed. Would you say this is accurate?

(Edit: I realized when rereading the posts that this whole argument may have been started over a misunderstanding.)

 

[MongooseFamiliar]

Per the Customer Service on the WotC boards (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=683775), looks like you're right Riga. Silly me, I was only reading what was in the book.

It strikes me as a very unbalancing way to do things, and if I was DMing a game I probably would be very hesitant to allow that interpretation of it. It radically changes the balance of the classes, and on paper looks like it makes the Swordsage WAY more powerful. I remain skeptical of that interpretation, and will be interested to see if it sticks.

To quote Tarek, "There are times when "Ask Wizards" comes up with the wrong answer..."

 

[Andor]

I don't think it's as dire as you fear. Even though Adaptive style is pretty much a required feat for a swordsage I don't feel it breaks the class. Spending a fullround action doing nothing is a huge cost in the middle of combat.

 

[Nifft]

Silly me, I was only reading what was in the book.

Here's what it says in the book:

Benefit: You can change your readied maneuvers at any time by taking a full-round action. If you're a crusader, your current granted maneuvers are lost and you gain new granted maneuvers as if you had just readied your maneuvers for the day.

That last bit strongly implies that when you ready maneuvers for the day, your readied maneuvers are ... readied. Not expended.

If you look on page 38, the last sentence in the paragraph under Readying Maneuvers supports this interpretation.

Basically, there are only three classifications of maneuvers (or five if you're a Crusader):
- Known
- Readied
- Expended
(+ Granted & Withheld)

You choose your Readied maneuvers from among your Known maneuvers. At the beginning of an encounter, all of your Readied maneuvers are ... Readied. Once you use a maneuver, it stops being Readied and becomes Expended. If you've got levels in certain classes, you may be able to recover one or more Expended maneuvers (move them from Expended to Readied) using a recovery mechanism.

What Adaptive Style does is quite clear, though: it allows you to change your readied maneuvers. Readied maneuvers are readied.

You may feel this feat is too strong, but it does say what it does.

Cheers, -- N

 

[RigaMortus2]

You choose your Readied maneuvers from among your Known maneuvers. At the beginning of an encounter, all of your Readied maneuvers are ... Readied. Once you use a maneuver, it stops being Readied and becomes Expended. If you've got levels in certain classes, you may be able to recover one or more Expended maneuvers (move them from Expended to Readied) using a recovery mechanism.

We are getting the same result, but I do not quite see it the same was as you do. It is my contention that Expended Maneuvers is a "sub-category" of Readied Maneuvers. A Readied Maneuver is not necessarily expended, but an Expended Maneuver is always Readied. I base this analysis on the following:

Unlike a wizard preparing her spells, you cannot choose to to leave a readied maneuver slot unfilled.

If an Expended Maneuver meant that it was no longer Readied, you would basically be contradicting that sentence, because the Readied slot would suddenly be unfilled.

I see Expended Maneuvers as maneuvers that are Readied but currently unavailable. Just as with a Crusader, their maneuvers are all Readied even though some may be Granted or Withheld (they are all still considered Readied, just not all available to him).

 

[Nifft]

I see where you are coming from. The text on page 38 under Initiating Maneuvers and Stances (middle of paragraph) clearly states that "you can only choose to initiate a maneuver that is currently readied and unexpended", which strongly indicates that "readied" and "expended" are not mutually exclusive.


The sentence you site pertains to the process by which one selects maneuvers, so it could be argued that other processes (i.e. initiating maneuvers) are not governed by that rule, but that's irrelevant, since your point looks to be strongly supported by other text.


Anyway, we agree on the main point: that selecting maneuvers implies they are rendered available.

Cheers, -- N