The old LG vs CN problem….

[GreenTengu]

I am seeing interpretations here so insanely broad for Chaotic Neutral that all people in all ways forever and always would be labeled that alignment. You leave no possible room for Lawful at all.

The typical bounty hunter or a contract thief that needs to hold fast to their word. The moment you aren't going to break promises because it happens to be fun or convenient at that particular time, the moment you can be trusted to carry out a mission you have been given-- you have utterly lost any claim to the "Chaotic" label, even if you want to argue it is only being done to maintain a reputation-- you have still become "Neutral" or possibly even "Lawful".

Being Chaotics means CHAOS. It is the root word. It means intentionally rebelling against all rules and order just because there are rules and order to rebel against just as much as being Neutral Good means doing good whenever there is good to be done. A Chaotic Neutral person will not keep their word, will not act in a trustworthy manner and will not look out for friends or companions or even value the lives of anyone around them to "maintain a reputation" which is just another way of saying "for the sake of honor" than a Neutral Good person would go around beheading innocents, raping slaves and raiding and razing villages for the sake of keeping up a proper reputation so that they can continue to function easily within the society.

Maybe you are looking for True Neutral? Being in flux, devoted neither to chaos or law, evil nor good but probably easily swayed or threatened into going one direction or another with the right pressures-- will do good if appealed to the right way, will support evil if threatened or riled up with propaganda, will rebel against societies norms to some degree, but will also support their nation and leader to a point... That is True Neutral.

Chaotic Neutral means being as devoted to breaking down all order in the world and violating every rule in the book to the same degree a Neutral Good is devoted to Good, a Lawful Neutral is devoted to ordering the world and expanding the power of the state and a Neutral Evil is to selfishly empowering themselves throughout their lives.

A Chaotic Neutral character would be incapable of abiding by the responsibilities that would fall upon them as a member of a party and would protest anyone who attempted to exert any sort of leadership and the very moment some sort of disagreement arose that slightly inconvenienced them for a moment, they would pack their bags and head off as submitting themselves to the will of the party goes against every fiber of their being.

 

[Celebrim]

I am seeing interpretations here so insanely broad for Chaotic Neutral that all people in all ways forever and always would be labeled that alignment. You leave no possible room for Lawful at all.

I obviously disagree.

The typical bounty hunter or a contract thief that needs to hold fast to their word. The moment you aren't going to break promises because it happens to be fun or convenient at that particular time, the moment you can be trusted to carry out a mission you have been given-- you have utterly lost any claim to the "Chaotic" label, even if you want to argue it is only being done to maintain a reputation-- you have still become "Neutral" or possibly even "Lawful".

Not at all. I concur that a Chaotic Neutral can't be trusted to hold fast to anything. But that's not the same as saying that they can be trusted to not do what they say all the time, much less this time. Sure, a Chaotic Neutral can change their mind. They can break their agreement if they want to, even just on a whim. But that's not the same as saying that they will do so every time. They are also free to keep their agreements just because they want to as well.

But even to be arguing this I think misses the point.

Being Chaotics means CHAOS. It is the root word. It means intentionally rebelling against all rules and order just because there are rules and order to rebel against just as much as being Neutral Good means doing good whenever there is good to be done.

Sure. But if you are compelled to rebel against the rules and order, that's just another way of being enslaved to them. Chaos doesn't compel you to break the rules. Chaos compels you to not treat the rules as superior to your own judgment, or to treat the purpose of the law as being superior to your own self-interest. There is nothing that prevents two chaotics from making a personal agreement and shaking on it. But they keep that agreement because they want to, because it is their self-interest to do so, not because they are compelled to keep their word. The difference between a lawful and a chaotic is that the lawful will keep their word even once they realize that it is against their interest to do so, merely because they believe respect for the law compels them to do so.

A Chaotic Neutral person will not keep their word, will not act in a trustworthy manner and will not look out for friends or companions or even value the lives of anyone around them to "maintain a reputation" which is just another way of saying "for the sake of honor"...

Sure. I don't disagree with that, but that's not the same as saying that a CN person is compelled to not keep their word, or is compelled to be untrustworthy, or is compelled to betray friends. Once again, there is a real and significant difference between CN and CE. CN's don't believe that they need to take advantage of others, to be deceitful, to be treacherous in order to get ahead.

Chaotic Neutral means being as devoted to breaking down all order in the world and violating every rule in the book to the same degree a Neutral Good is devoted to Good...

There are two ways in which that is false. First, CN don't break 'every rule in the world', as that is a matter of nonsense. If two rules are contradictory, what would you do? If a rule said, "Behave in a chaotic fashion.", how could you persistently violate that rule and still be chaotic? And if you were compelled to do the opposite of what a rule said, wouldn't that be no different than being compelled to follow the rules? You'd still be subject to the rules. Chaotic aren't compelled to break rules simply for the sake of breaking rules. Chaotics are compelled to ignore rules as unimportant. Chaotic aren't acting against order for its own sake, but because they believe order is an unreasonable restraint on free will. But they aren't (necessarily) irrationally violating every rule even when it is against their own interest. (I concede that some chaotic might act like that if they choose to, but it's not compelled by the belief.) More importantly, their are mores which chaotics adhere to regardless of being chaotic. Even your imagined chaotic compelled to break every more is still adhering to some sort of more. In the case of Chaotic Neutrals, they aren't breaking rules like "Don't murder.", just because its a rule. Most CN's would think "Don't murder" is pretty good advice. They don't respect it because it is a rule, but because they believe that it is in their own self-interest. After all, every self wants to continue, and so it is in the best interest of each person to practice a passive ethic of reciprocity: "Don't hurt me, and I won't hurt you."

If CN's really were going around breaking rules like "Don't murder", just because it is a rule, what would distinguish them from CE? CN's don't go around enslaving other people just because there is a law against it. CN's in fact look at CE's as being rather misled, and being rather less chaotic than they are, precisely because CE's feel compelled to go around doing nasty stuff simply because... what? True freedom would be freedom to not follow the rules at all, including this rule you made up that states: "Thou shalt not follow the rules." They don't think the goal here is to replace the rules with a new set of rules. They don't think the goal here is to replace the idea that there is one set of rules for everyone, with a new set of rules for everyone. Yes, they do want a world without an overarching society judging their actions, without suppression of their personal freedom, and where every relationship is unique and personal. But they aren't stupid. It's Chaotic Neutral, not Chaotic Stupid.

I mean fundamentally, one of the basic problems you have is that are rendering every alignment down to a single stereotypical personality completely lacking in wisdom or any understandable motivation. Being chaotic isn't about being irresponsible. It's about not seeing being responsible to anyone but yourself as the reason for doing something. You can still be responsible because you want to be. Or you could choose to be irresponsible, and that would be fine too. Being chaotic isn't about making all the decisions yourself or not following someone else. It's about not feeling you have a duty to follow someone, and only following people because you think it is in your best interests. A chaotic isn't someone who says, "Sorry. I can't hire a guide to help me get where I'm going." It's not some simple axiom like, "Never follow anyone else's instructions." It's, "You never have to follow anyone else's instructions if they don't make sense to you." They don't think they are actually sacrificing their personhood to arrange to let someone else make decisions that the other person is better able to make. They are perfectly capable of respecting other people and following them because they choose to do so. They just think they are actually sacrificing their personhood when they sacrifice their choice in the matter.

Your vision of CN gives them no choice in the matter.

 

[GMMichael]

Would now be a good time to mention that I've written a game that's free of alignment?