The old soft shoe...

[John Blackwood]

I feel that sometimes a punch needs pulled certainly for story reasons or maybe because a player is attached to his character. I also think this is why DM rolls shouldn't be known to the players. The DM should bluff you if he's pulling his punches and never tell you if he did. This doesn't always work when the DM hit a player hard only to find out that it kills the player. Then he either needs to pull back the curtain and take it back or let the player die. However if the players are stupid and run straight into hell's mouth let them go. The valiant knight can die for his cause and the brave but foolish halfling can sadly learn hs final lesson.

I like the idea of a Deus Ex Machina every now and then though as long as it's not too far fetched. Like instead of the underworld being over capacity maybe some wandering warrior could happen by and leap into the fight feeling it his duty to help anyone in need.

Lastly, I really like your idea for death and resurrection. In my game we also think that gold for life is a nonequivalent exchange and it would require much more. We have no plan for what would happen on death though and we've been only a frogs hair from the other side a couple of times. If you don't mind I think I'll talk to my DM and try to get her to steal your idea.

 

[Empirate]

I have a soft spot for my players. Worse, I have a soft spot for their characters. So letting them die in a stupid random encounter wouldn't ever occur to me. Character development (as in evolution of personality, not in leveling up) is the most important part of our game, and I have at least one player who could do as well without any combat in the game.

That doesn't mean they don't get into scraps, or even epic battles, but I like to minimize the effect combat can have on character development. So most of the time, PCs don't die in my game.

But on the other hand, I realize that death must be part of the world in order to make character development meaningful. Becoming a real hero without risk of dying is hard to do. Just making sure there's always a Raise Dead available is hardly satisfying, though. The revolving door of paradise is not part of my game. Much like the OP, we have banned Raise Dead - and nobody the PCs have ever met is powerful enough to cast Resurrection, it's a legendary effect.

In order to keep death in the game without actually having it occur (outside of truly epic moments), my solution is the following: appear as if you're not pulling any punches.

Be dramatic about the enemy's capabilities (good descriptions go a long way), warn the players beforehand that going where they're underway to is dangerous, disproportionately reward every bit of creativity the players show, and always leave an obvious avenue of escape.

When it comes to lucky crits, don't use Scythes, and preferably no axes either.

When it comes to disabling effects (Web, Hold Person...), use them to humiliate and toy with the PCs, not Coup de Grace them - it's ever so much better to inspire hatred for the BBEG than despair in your players.

Be aware of each PC's HP total at any given time. When they get hit with something that would put them at -10 or below, ask in a dramatic voice: "How many HP did you still have before this?" Regardless of the answer, put on your meanyhead smile and say "Well, that leaves your friends exactly two rounds to save you from bleeding out, then...". Make sure they can do so in two rounds, if they so choose.

Have your monsters/NPCs use their most powerful attack first - that can frighten the players like there's no tomorrow. They don't know that Mr. Monster can only do this 1/day, so they'll be conservative about their own HP.

If the PCs use any debuffs or buffs, use these as a justification for fudged rolls: "You notice you'd normally be dead now - if it weren't for Brandeles' Haste spell! The Behir misses you by 1." No player will question that, it's just too much of a feelgood moment.

Do not attack downed PCs any further. Be careful about AoE attacks.

Establish an in-game solution to PCs who do die - but make very, very clear that it will work only once, and will not be consequence-free. That way, you keep a certain measure of control in an emergency. It's unlikely you'll need to use this, and it certainly won't occur more than once in a campaign where you watch what you're doing.
For example, in an evil campaign we were playing, the party Rogue was watched over and sometimes guided by a demon lord. When the Rogue did die (suitably in an epic bossfight, BTW), the demon lord saw her soul plummeting into the Abyss, and caught her. He provided her with a new body (that of a Tiefling - he left his mark on her), and sent her back as his pawn.

Perhaps most importantly, I don't care how much I punish my PCs, as long as they don't die. Death precludes further character development - having your Barbarian's Str score drained 5 points does the opposite. Furthermore, since I'm playing such a roleplaying-heavy game, the fate of beloved NPCs has real emotional consequences for my players. No reason not to kill a PC's father - in a public execution for being a Vecnan heretic, no less!


Usually, this approach works well in my group. YMMV, of course.

 

[JamesonCourage]

I have a soft spot for my players. Worse, I have a soft spot for their characters. So letting them die in a stupid random encounter wouldn't ever occur to me.

*SNIP*

Perhaps most importantly, I don't care how much I punish my PCs, as long as they don't die.

I've basically been roleplaying for 15 years. My brother got me into it. This is essentially how he GMed. He's a very fun GM to play with. However, after about a year, I noticed that no matter how dangerous things were, I wasn't going to die. The other players noticed it, too.

I began to see if I could die. Now, I wouldn't do anything outright stupid. I did, however, start playing more dangerous characters.

First, a sorcerer that liked melee spells whose mindset was all about combat. I was still strategic, and I'd only move in when I felt safe enough (self buffs, flanking, little chance of being swarmed, etc.). Nowhere close to dying.

Second, I played a lawful good fighter, who was all about bringing the bad criminals to justice. Not the thieves. No, the violent criminals. So, I worked against bandits, opposing armies, monsters, etc. Got dropped to 4 once. Didn't get hit for the rest of combat.

Lastly, I played a spiked chain fighter. Lawful Neutral. I took Diehard, just to see if I could push combat. I got knocked to -4, and kept attacking. I made it to -8 (from just me attacking) before combat ended, and we won. I walked out holding the head of the boss (cleric). Walking out at -8 holding the head of the evil boss would have been a lot more epic if I was afraid of dying.

After that, I just stopped trying. After playing on and off for with my brother for years (since 3.0), he's never killed me. Out of my regular group, he's never killed anyone. So that's the danger. You risk killing the thrill, the feeling you earned something. You might rob someone of the otherwise epic feeling of walking out, in the negatives, holding the head of the evil guy.

Personally, I'd suggest pulling punches only when you messed up. If you tried to give them a tough fight, but it ends up dominating, that's a GM mistake, and it's within his power to fix it. However, I have a very solid rule of everyone rolling in the open, including the GM. I even say DCs before player rolls sometimes, just so they know I'm not fudging things (I trust them not to metagame).

Now, what you can do if you roll in the open is change tactics. Yeah, the enemies may have just dropped the party fighter, but the rogue is rolling well still. Have the enemies engaging him call for help. When the other minions move to the rogue (away from other party members), that gives an opportunity for the cleric to heal the fighter (just to stabilize him, if not to bring him back into the fight), and the wizard to throw an AoE at the minions (figuring the rogue has Evasion, or the AoE is non-harmful, or both). Moving the minions away from the wizard and cleric isn't a sound tactic in this scenario, but if you misjudged the encounter to begin with, I'm totally okay with fudging tactics to even the odds.

I say that if it's someone's time to die, let them die. It sucks, yes, but it gives a much richer feeling of accomplishment when any character achieves a certain level of awesomeness. Also, death is a great roleplaying opportunity, and I like how it usually plays out. Lastly, it gives the player a chance to make a new character, which can be a good thing (better for party cohesion due to mindset, better for party makeup, get to try a new concept, just wanted something new to do, etc.).

But hey, play what you like

 

[Empirate]

Agree with much of your post. I did actually kill a PC once or twice - I just felt awful about it. So it's not a total no-go, but it won't happen in unimportant encounters, because the players rolled badly, or because I happened to roll three crits in a row.

Also, I have built a reputation for not really balancing all encounters that well - intentionally. Some encounters are meant to be run away from. My players know this, so the Run option is always kinda on the table. That helps a lot in regular encounters that threaten to go south because of tactics, bad rolls etc.

All in all, I believe my style works with my group so well because the players are very invested in their PCs, and would hate to have a character die on them. So they're careful about combat, always ready to run, then come back and fight another day.

 

[Greenfield]

I like the idea of a Deus Ex Machina every now and then though as long as it's not too far fetched. Like instead of the underworld being over capacity maybe some wandering warrior could happen by and leap into the fight feeling it his duty to help anyone in need.

Lastly, I really like your idea for death and resurrection. In my game we also think that gold for life is a nonequivalent exchange and it would require much more. We have no plan for what would happen on death though and we've been only a frogs hair from the other side a couple of times. If you don't mind I think I'll talk to my DM and try to get her to steal your idea.

In our last campaign, the vehicle for raising the dead was Shadow Walk, though Plane Shift would have certainly worked as well. We also had a physical place, a temple that held a physical entrance to the realm, in case the spells weren't available for whatever reason. It had its own challenges, of course.

In any case, all roads lead to the same place, "Death's Door". The entry to the Land of the Dead was a set of open gates guarded by an appropriate beast. Fenris wolf, Cerebrus, the Great Serpent, pick your poison (or flames, or fangs, etc.) What you encountered wasn't always predictable, but was always a challenge best met with something other than brute force.

A line of the dead, "Petitioners" they were called, moved through unchallenged. Living beings were challenged, of course.

If the death is recent enough you might find the person you seek in that line. it seems to stretch for miles, and doesn't seem to move all that fast, yet if you keep pace with it you'll find yourself at the castle in no time. The castle is the Halls of Judgment, where the final fate of the dead is determined.

There are many temptations here, distractions set up to lure souls off their destined path. You might find your missing person there, but take care not to fall into temptation yourself.

Once judged, souls are sent on to the various "final rewards" (or punishments) based on the deity they followed, and how well they followed them.

Pulling someone out of that final place is a real problem. Hell, even finding them can be a problem.

Once you have them you can depart. Or at least you can try. Attempts to gate, plane shift or shadow walk out will land you just inside those same gates again. You now have to face the guardian monster a second time.

After that you have a long walk across the twilight lands, the so-called Plane of Shadow, back to the lands of the living. The recovered spirits must travel that whole distance to earn their life back. No magical short cuts allowed. Try to Plane Shift or Gate back and all you have is their spirit, which is soon drawn back to the Land of the Dead. Living characters can escape that way if they have to, but doing so means that the mission fails.

And, of course, aside from the perils of the shadow realm, there is the Wild Hunt. The huntmaster patrols this region, and will be relentless in his pursuit. It's his job to make sure the dead don't escape and he takes it seriously. He also takes it seriously when someone tries to aid such an escape. He's a Devil (CR21) who rides a Nightmare (advanced), and he'll have others with him, mortals called to his service, as well as a pack of hell hounds.

In short, a scary guy who heads a bunch of other scary guys, always tough enough to present a good final challenge for a quality side adventure.

We made that trip a total of 4 times over the course of a 20+ level campaign, and each time was a tale worth telling. (In one trip, we lost a PC while down there. We grabbed her out of the line on our way out and kept going. )

 

[Noctos]

death is no reason to stop fighting. it's a fantasy mistycal world raising the dead happens it's exspensive and harm full to the body plus you have to get it done quickly i don't by the spirit moving on theory in it i do it mainly for the reason of rot. which i have had players counter act with a handy freeze spell. to by more time. Your dm choose not to crush your guy with no way to come back you should be happy. he pulled a punch as a way to keep you around most people wont.
personally i killed and mutilated my friends characters every chance i got. it was fun.

you asked about what else can a dm do when creatures are rolling 20 while the party rolls crap simple hand out what i call character points. Character point is earned for dozens of reasons. figuring out a difficult trap handling a sistuation in a way i could not for see. sometimes (not often) as simple as getting up and get me a new drink so i could continue to be lazy. but a character point was worth one reroll of any die at any time. which is the simplest way not to be forced to pull any punches

Yet another solution requires a priest and one that understands what his real role is and how he gets his powers. i had an entire party on the ropes and i mean 8 players 6 npcs dead, dieing, trap, on fire, frozen, chunky. their opponent was a insainly powerful wizerd with a group of loyal and powerful followers. the last person who wasn't total dismembered was "Reithos" a powerful lvl 16 priest for the god tyr. when i turn to him discribe the scene in a horrific detail and then ask. "what do you do?" he thought for only one second stood up and said. " i drop to my knees and pray and beg my god to help us save me and my friends."
i was so shocked at his perfect answer that i gave him what at the time i call the touch of god. I return him to full life recharged his holy hammer that he had expired on his journey through the tower. He restocked every spell he knew and for the next few rounds i made him impervious to every spell under lvl4. boosted states and let him go on a savage killing spree. a little much? yes! But i was impress he did the one thing i never thought he would do. He remembered that all his powers are given to him each day by his god for the amount of praying and the need of them that day. and since they entire party at the time was working to save the world from an evil wizerd who worked for the lord of the nine hells i figured tyr would gladly assist his servent who was in desprate need. i honestly thought the entire party was dead.

i had a back up plan for such a thing they were simply going to be revived as and put under control and other binding spells forced to work for the evil wizerds they went to defeat until further notice.

good players will always surprize you. any dm can always kill you great dm's turn death in to a plot device.

 

[GreyLord]

I pull punches occasionally. If it's a minor battle and players are just having bad rolls, I'm not going to punish them even more. Typically what happens is if they are down to their last few HP...and I roll a hit that will kill them outright, I'll normally adjust it to leave them with 1 or 2 HP. This gives them the chance to run. Now the next hit will probably kill them. Dead. All the damage that would have been done, plus the damage rolled for that next hit will all collide to combine a deathly roll.

Things are little different with the bigger fights however, and typically I won't pull punches there.

In addition, I'll sometimes modify a monsters AC if they are rolling particularly badly, so that they'll have a better time hitting it.

This is also why I typically roll behind a screen or have hidden DM rolls, that way I can adjust this if needed.

I find players get irked if they are killed in some minor way...but if it's a bigger battle they all seem to take it well.