The paladin. A story and a question.

[SS]

A man who follows the light of his God, no matter the hazard. He is a crusader, a defender, a paladin.

After many days traversing a long snow covered trail up a mountainside, the paladin sees a temple off in the distance. A small green oasis somehow sheltered from a frozen land of nothingness. Surely it must be a divine providence, the reward of rest. Approaching the temple with caution, he comes across a channel cut deep within the snow and ice that leads to the temple gates. His chilled bones crack as he lifts a heavy hammer to sound a large gong. Waiting to meet the occupants, he begins to nervously rub his holy symbol. He attempts to sense the aura of evil. He dose not feel the perversions of anything unnatural within his presence. He snaps quickly to attention, as he catches his own nervous twitch and stops himself. As he is greeted by a frail elderly man who introduces himself as Father Men'shoi. Father Men'shoi welcomes the stranger into the temple, as they walk he begins telling the stranger "this is a place of worship and work. Men communing together for a higher purpose, acceptance of these terms means you will never be asked to leave." Father Men'shoi asks the stranger to wait alone in the common room until he can return with Father Mikhail Lanka. A few minuets pass while the paladin is contemplating what his God could possibly want him to accomplish here. The air chills, small hairs on the back of the paladin's neck stand on end. He feels he is being watched. He now knows what his God wants of him...When Father Men'shoi returns to the common room with Father Mikhail Lanka they are stunned and bewildered at the scene before them. The stranger is holding a crystal by his outstretched hand. Rays of unilluminating white light arc forward from the crystal to surround Father Obal Nayavovich. (Father Obal Nayavovich is spiritual leader as well as a monastic ghost who had subsisted in the temple for decades.) In the time it took them to enter the common room and take-in the events it was over, what had happened was done. Father Obal Nayavovich was no more, a roll of smoke danced in the air. As the paladin turned to see the two men standing behind him. After witnessing what the stranger had done to their trusted friend, they attacked. Pulling back their sleeves would be the last thing these monks would ever do...The paladin believed this temple to be a sanctuary of the profane. It's halls would be unhallow no more.

***The paladin in this story is an NPC that killed several monks and priests from my character's back story. He is a lawful good paladin of a god that loathes the undead. The monks and priests were all lawful neutral. They did attack him first, but that was after the paladin killed/destroyed/imprisoned the monk-ghost. Did the paladin commit a crime? What should his punishment be? Is he still a paladin? Here's the kicker, the temple monks were the protectors of a small village population 40-50. Without the monks the village will most definitely be ravaged by local goblins. Is the paladin accountable for what happens to the village, even if he never knew it existed?***

 

[Shemeska]

Did the paladin commit a crime? What should his punishment be? Is he still a paladin?

I'd say he committed murder, and perhaps the first thing I'd do would be to strip him of his paladin status. If the ghost in question wasn't a threat that's unprovoked murder, and the monks were entirely justified to attack him for it. Misunderstandings all around, but the paladin would be the one ultimately responsible for the deaths, and all of the consequences that follow from it (the village being unprotected).

I'd probably have the guy be haunted by the voices of the people he killed, or routinely see spectres of the villagers who might have then died as a consequence of his self-righteous zeal.

 

[Voadam]

A crusader against undead. Who killed those who attacked him after he killed an undead. No paladin stripping.

Whether he committed a crime would depend on the laws.

 

[Turanil]

Father Obal Nayavovich is spiritual leader as well as a monastic ghost

The problem lies with the determination of what an undead is, and who this "ghost" is. It's game mechanics infringing on roleplay. Now, if you were using WotC Book of Exalted Deeds, you would know there are some kind of ghosts (a new monster) featured there, which isn't an "undead" per se, but a sort of guardian spirit. So, using this book, Father Obal would be such a guardian spirit, not an undead, and the paladin wouldn't have attacked it. Now, use the rules as they are, and an undead is an evil horror, unlikely to become the wise leader of a monastic order. I mostly see ghosts not used very well in this story. Obviously, the paladin should not have slain Father Obal, and should not have considered it an evil undead that he is sworn to destroy. But (in terms of gaming) to each his own anyway.

 

[Demmero]

A crusader against undead...

...does not equal a paladin.

Who killed those who attacked him after he killed an undead...

...even though these men were unarmed and defending their own home.

No paladin stripping.

I dunno...sounds like a borderline evil/definitely irresponsible deed he did.

Whether he committed a crime would depend on the laws.

And if he did break the law (and is not respecting legitimate authority), he's broken the paladin code of conduct and should expect reprisals.

 

[WayneLigon]

My first thought is that the situation should not have occurred to begin with, and is common with the unfortunate stereotyping of the paladin as an unthinking 'shoot first and ask questions later' idiot, because that is how we've come to see people with the strong beliefs the paladin espouses. It's like some part of people's brains turn off and they don't see the Good part of that alignment.

An undead-hunting paladin is a perfect role to play: virtually all undead are evil of a particularly dark and grotesque sort, and the world is well rid of them. But some are not, and that's where the wisdom of a paladin comes into play. Being wise means you're not an unthinking killing machine.

A ghost can be any alignment. That's when the Paladin is going to make use that that class ability that, you know, lets him discern what evil lies in the hearts of Man.

If the ghost is evil, probably destroy it and then severely question the monks to find out if they are necromancers of some stripe, or if they were under it's control. If it's not evil, then he'll probably either (1) leave, uncomfortable with sheltering in a possibly tainted place, (2) talk to it and see why it's sticking around, or if it imprisoned on Earth for some reason (and if it's the latter, seeing what he can do to sending it on it's way).

Unless both sects are very secretive, though, the situation should not even have come up. The paladin, seeing that this is the Wo-Lun Sect and that they are known to consort of ghosts, might not enter the grounds. The monks, knowing that the paladin serves Arwas the Purifier, might not let him enter the grounds unless they talk to him about things first to see where he stands. Unless both groups are habitually very secretive, they are going to openly wear some symbol or such announcing their faith. If they are common sects in the world at large, no Knowledge Religion check is even needed.

 

[Demmero]

My first thought is that the situation should not have occurred to begin with, and is common with the unfortunate stereotyping of the paladin as an unthinking 'shoot first and ask questions later' idiot, because that is how we've come to see people with the strong beliefs the paladin espouses. It's like some part of people's brains turn off and they don't see the Good part of that alignment.

Amen.

I'll also add that the first line of text in the paladin's code is: "A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act."

I think a lot of people replace "unwillingly" with "unwittingly" when it comes to these dilemmas. The paladin in this example very willingly entered the monastery, very willingly killed the monk ghost, and willingly killed the monks when they dared raise a hand against him.

 

[gizmo33]

Oh, alignment thread, I can't resist you...

So the paladin destroyed a ghost? "Killed" I guess, sent it off to the afterlife? I think alignment issues really depend on what the culture considers good and evil. That's what "theology" is all about.

For example: a paladin walks into a smoky tavern, orders "chicken" off the menu. A neutral small-sized animal is slain, and it's carcass is brought to the paladin to be consumed. Does he lose his paladin-hood? What if two vegetarians attack him for eating a chicken and he kills them in self-defense? Does he go to Hades?

In the real world, these issues are settled by theology. In fact, the sects of different religions that exist in the real-world are a consequence of differences in opinion over these kinds of issues.

A well-educated, well-trained member of any faith would know the answer to common situations. Who sends a paladin out into the world a doesn't tell them if killing non-evil undead is what is expected of them? In your campaign, this situation with the paladin probably happened a thousand years ago, a council of clerics was convened (these are lawful people after all), the issue was debated and decided. "Killing undead of any alignment is allowable, as is killing anyone who attacks you for doing so" - could be the verdict. It would be written in the sacred scripture, and the case would be settled.

IMO it's a little unfair to expect players to guess the answers to these culturally relative questions. The DnD rules largely define alignment in a circular fashion, AFAICT there's not enough information for me to decide whether eating a chicken is good or evil (or why eating a chicken might be good, but eating a horse might be evil). So I think it ultimately is up to the DM. Maybe reading a little about other cultures and religions would provide examples of the kinds of decisions you could make when designing the campaign's sub-cultures. The one thing that seems fairly universal is that organized religions tell their followers what is expected of them.

 

[LostSoul]

If I was the GM, and the paladin was a PC, I would ask him: "Do you think you should lose your paladin status?" I'd go with whatever the player wanted.

If this guy's an NPC in my campaign, I'd probably let him keep his paladin status, because it would be a lot cooler. The evil guy who massacred the peaceful monastery and let the town be destroyed is actually a paladin. Cool.

 

[Voadam]

Ghosts can be any alignment, but all undead detect as evil.

Creature/Object Aura Power
Faint Moderate Strong Overwhelming

Evil creature1 (HD) 10 or lower 11-25 26-50 51 or higher
Undead (HD) 2 or lower 3-8 9-20 21 or higher
Evil outsider (HD) 1 or lower 2-4 5-10 11 or higher
Cleric of an evil deity2 (class levels) 1 2-4 5-10 11 or higher
Evil magic item or spell (caster level) 2nd or lower 3rd-8th 9th-20th 21st or higher

Except for undead and outsiders, which have their own entries on the table.
Some characters who are not clerics may radiate an aura of equivalent power. The class description will indicate whether this applies.

And ghosts can only be killed by specific means, if we assume he knows ghosts can be non evil we assume he knows that slaying a ghost does not kill it.

Rejuvenation (Su)
In most cases, it’s difficult to destroy a ghost through simple combat: The "destroyed" spirit will often restore itself in 2d4 days. Even the most powerful spells are usually only temporary solutions. A ghost that would otherwise be destroyed returns to its old haunts with a successful level check (1d20 + ghost’s HD) against DC 16. As a rule, the only way to get rid of a ghost for sure is to determine the reason for its existence and set right whatever prevents it from resting in peace. The exact means varies with each spirit and may require a good deal of research.